Thayans, Thay, and opinions !

[Rask]

What I want to know is: What do the players here think?

I understand wanting to enforce Thayan Knight, I truly do, but from our perspective, it cripples us in the things we do RP wise and mechanically. We have tried many times to come to a middle ground, and failed. I will explain further....



I am not sure how well you all know the classes and role-play around Thay and the Thayan Enclave. But as someone who has had multiple characters in this guild I can tell you: It ain't easy.

We of course are often seen (rightfully so.) as "bad guys" on the server, as evil in RP, ect. We know this, we are OK with this, we deal with it. We expect to lose a lot of PVP bouts, we expect to BE pvp'd often by those that hate us IC. We take no issue with this, we enjoy being the bad guys or we wouldn't do it.

Recently, as a guild, we had decided to no longer enforce a few previous rules with the guild. The main one being that we no longer required a knight to have to take the Thayan Knight class. I realize this sounds weird, but it actually makes a lot of sense once you look at the class mechanically.

The reason we made this choice, was completely mechanical. The class stinks. That is actually an understatement honestly, it's a garbage fire. It is more beneficial to take 5 levels of straight fighter, or literally any other class, mechanically speaking. We did away with this because it was almost impossible to find any player who would join the faction as a knight due to this. The class was bad, it restricted their build, it made their character -worse- for choosing it. On top of all this, as said earlier, we are the most visible bad guys on the server. Which makes us a constant target for PVP or generally being threatened, challenged, insulted, ect ect. If you put all this together, it is a recipe for less fun for a lot of people.

Now, we had asked previously (a few times over the years.) to have the Thayan Knight class retooled or looked at to be more in line with other classes. So far this has not happened. The class is still awful and severely under powered. This is ultimately what pushed us to no longer enforcing the rule that to RP a knight, you MUST take the knight class. Honestly though, as a visible evil, we already have it hard enough as it is, having to mechanically, play as significantly weaker builds that everyone else just makes the whole thing that much worse. Not to mention even that the Red Wizard class is also woefully under powered compared to the likes of Archmage. But that is far less of an issue in comparison to the Thayan Knight problem.

Now, where am I going with this?

Well, we had been playing with this changed rule in our faction for a while now, and out of the blue the DM team has sent us a message, saying that we must begin to enforce the Thayan Knight rule again. This has completely nullified one of my characters (My main.) entirely RP wise. Her entire backstory, everything, "poof", immediately voided. Weeks of work gone.

But I digress, that is not even really the central issue we take on this. The fact is, we have tried, and tried, and tried for years to get Thayan Knight, and to a lesser extent, Red Wizard, looked at to bring them more in line. We were brushed off, denied, told "No" time and time again. So we took the matter into our own hands as a guild, and simply stopped enforcing the Thayan Knight rule. Now we are being forced to enforce it, causing not only a few people to not be able to play their characters any longer, but also significantly weakening ourselves mechanically again.


In the words of our guild leader:

Hidden: show

Greetings.

I've been playing a Thayan for over 5 years, if not 6.

Many issues were discussed over the years.

The Mechanics of the classes and its viability.

The RP behind the guild.

The Plots and guild advancement.

First off, The Mechanics.

The Red Wizard class is blessed with the High DC for their schools. For that they have to give up a lot of good spells, making them very hard to be viable, unless you play Evocation schools and necromancy.

I've never seen powerbuilds including Red Wizards in their builds, nor does it compare to Blood Magus, archmage or any diping into other Prestige classes.

The new changes in the spell casting and an arbitrary ruling against the 2011 ruling allowing us to semi-bypass the 2nd school of opposition with a valid RP backstory makes it even harder to play and enjoy the class. I sent evidences that all was legit. Pms, posts on the forums and lore from the sourcebooks was provided. Still was told "No."

We don'T ask changes, we don't ask more powers. We simply ask to be allowed to semi-bypass the school of opposition and if the scripting is too complicated, just abandon the 2nd school of opposition. It does not make our Red Wizards stronger than anyone else, just makes it viable.

THAYAN KNIGHT

I cannot find better word to describe the class than "Weak". The Thayan Knight should be improved. If only to allow it to chose their bonus feat in the Fighters' bonus feat selection... give it a bit advantage with sword and shield fighting... such as free shieldbash, weapon specialization longsword...perhaps some immunity to Knockdown... "guard the lord" is not very usefull either.

I discussed it with the players of the guild playing Thayan knights, and we came up with a suggestion. Make the Thayan Knight a 5 lvl version of a "Dwarven Defender" or adapt it and make it a 10 level class.

All players playing a Thayan Knight ask me if they are obligated to take the thayan knight class then "meh" when i tell them yes. Taking 5 levels of fighters is more advantageous than Thayan Knight.
And to add to the weakness of the class... we need to make an approved backstory to have the right to take the class xD.


ROLE PLAY BEHIND THE GUILD/FACTION

It's broadly known. We're evil. We're slavers. We're hated. And it's all good. We have our role and we accept it.It comes with more consequances than perks. We can't all be logged in at the same time so grinding/looting and RP can become scarce if we do not bend over/backward with our RP.

The Thayans are often not included in plots by other factions because "They're Thayans!". We have to forcefully join events or plots and when something that belongs to Thayan faction such as the Foreign Exchange commitee, It's swarmed by 1000 guilds that have nothing to do there, religious preachers and their likes so no one gets offended and felt left out.

Also,recently and a bit less recently, IG rules for OOC reasons have changed, and ooc rules came in and disrupted our RP, cutting possibilities for people wishing to join us directly or indirectly.

The OOC rule.
The "no slave" player character rule hit only three sort of people:
The Thayans
The Zhentarim
The Underdark.

The rule was brought in because some would end up doing non PG13 things under the slave/master relationship.

The problem is not slavery. The problem is that some players cannot seem to bother following the simple rules we have to follow. I've Rped with people playing Thayan Slaves before (on another server) and they knew what was to play one and we always kept communication running, making sure all was right,-following the rules- and most importantly making sure there was consent. Some players wanted to play Thayans of slave races and got turned away and moved on to other projects.

The IC law of BG that was OOCly changed.

There was a law where "Slandering and blaspheming" publicly against foreign representant was a minor offense according to the laws. The only one affected by this change was us, the Thayans.

I was given as a reason by previous HDM that he felt it was ridiculous that someone could get jailed/fined for insulting someone. Perhaps in 2017. In 1300'S ? No so much.
It allowed us an opportunity to RP in town, without being heckled every half minute.
It's not that much of a big deal. But it was a nice perk of being a legit, evil presence within the city.


PLOTS AND GUILD ADVANCEMENT

Since Guild DMs were abolished,Never a DM took the time to make personalized quests and events for the Thayans unless we beg for it, and it always takes weeks, and sometimes months before we get an answer... or the dreaded "What? Oh I didn't see it. It wasn't bumped for awhile." Candlekeep, Doron Amar got events spawned on them. ( I asked the players of the faction a couple times, just to make sure I wasn't exagerating) The Pheonix Company have their own DM in MDwagner it seems... We have a thread on our forums about ideas, free for the taking for DMs. I remember sending them to the DM team at least 2 times. We had 2 thread on our forums called "THE PLAN 2015 and 2016" which i sent to the DM team with lot of propositions and idea.

I've had access(perhaps wrongly through ex DM Venger's screenies) to discussions between DMs saying that we thayans expect a lot of things without any efforts. That infuriated me. Because just in coins(wich takes loads to time to gather), IG wise, I personally spent 2-3 millions in the guildhall and maintain the player base, in the RP, delivering the Dukes hundreds of thousands of coins. My predecessors Rped to get the Thayan Enclave back in the city, despise the horrible HORRIBLE rp from dracolich riding Thayans, attacking Baldur's Gate.

Over the years, we attempted to create plots with DM support. A trading faction like the Thayans should be trying to expend their influence and business.

We tried and always got resistance from the DM team.

In my time:
-Attempted to gain alcohol distribution control, with the Elfsong Tavern, offering better prices better quality.
The answer was "No, I don't force my customer to drink anything."
Which is a nonsense because when you go to a bar, you offer whatever is offered to you, or walk out. The DM then made an NPC appear, trying to buy our goods and act as a middle man. Thayans do not take middle men, that's how they gain control over the market. The project Died then.

-When Beregost was destroyed by the Amn-gate war. The Enclave wanted to invest in Thunderhammer's shop and make him sell Thayan goods and give us 25% of the shop. Answer "No. Adventurers gave millions in donations!" No RP. No occasion of discussing or negociate. Again, died at the moment.

-After the Undead invasion where Kahanak defeated the great pox almost by himself *insert bragging* we wanted to lend coins to buy out the Dukes from their debts and cut the SCCE's profits (sorry Endelyon <3 <3<3<3) in exchange of a few favors and influence, of course. They refused asking us to act like construction contractor. Then we're told "you're not a bank!" We sure are construction workers then?

-Following the construction working industry, we offered a deal for Soubar, with Ebon Blade support, to fortify the settlement, place Golems to ensure security. Sharing of profits, adding of Thayan merchant and most of all, not interfering in the place's autonomy and self governing. Answer: "No, this is a threat to our autonomy."

-Sshamath deal. I finally went in the UD for the first time since I played on the server. To establish trade with the drow. Something we've been thinking about for a long time. We RP a lot, get a couple factions to back us. We ask for a minor enclave, so we can port down there, bring our goods. Maybe a slight bending of the rule of only 1 guild hall. Perhaps adding an extra room to our enclave that led to the UD. We really tried to make something UD/surface happen. Someting interesting. Trying to kick in some life to the dying UD.... Answer: We Rped for weeks, we have to pay for a Booth instead of an enclave and we don't get to "own" it.

We are a focal merchant faction that's constantly denied expension. We are getting burned out by the constant challenges and categorical refusals or railroaded suggestions.

Thanks to Endelyon, we finally got our Thayan Merchant. It took 3 years, while countless areas were made, updated, new stores...

In conclusion, we, as the Red Wizard faction, would like to thank you for all the volounter work you do.

We're ready to do our part , but please allow us to play at the same level of fun as the other players and please allow us to be Red Wizards as we can be and not how you want us to be.

[Calodan]

Well I can not speak for the mechanics of TK too much I have yet to take it and use it. I can say that it has a neat RP boon officially as of last night DMs ruled that a Thayan Knight was basically a lesser noble once being knighted. Now I do not know about you but becoming a NOBLE on this server is pretty damned hard. There is tons of RP to be done. So I think the RP boons of the class far outweigh the mechanics in some sense. Yeah I dropped BG for TK and lost EDM and Divine Shield but I have ICE and IPA. DR 12/-. So not bad overall. Just not going to be a PB at all. I am sure like all pure melee it will suffer greatly in PvP and the Epic dungeons alone that is a BG problem more so than just TK itself. I would not mind it getting more defensive bonuses to kind of make them the baseline shield wall build not a DD or Breach Gnome. The human version so to speak. They are guards of their people. However I say all this not having played the class at all yet. I just hit level 9 on my build and waiting on DM approval of my biography to take level 10 and TK class.

[Rask]

Well I can not speak for the mechanics of TK too much I have yet to take it and use it. I can say that it has a neat RP boon officially as of last night DMs ruled that a Thayan Knight was basically a lesser noble once being knighted. Now I do not know about you but becoming a NOBLE on this server is pretty damned hard. There is tons of RP to be done. So I think the RP boons of the class far outweigh the mechanics in some sense. Yeah I dropped BG for TK and lost EDM and Divine Shield but I have ICE and IPA. DR 12/-. So not bad overall. Just not going to be a PB at all. I am sure like all pure melee it will suffer greatly in PvP and the Epic dungeons alone that is a BG problem more so than just TK itself. I would not mind it getting more defensive bonuses to kind of make them the baseline shield wall build not a DD or Breach Gnome. The human version so to speak. They are guards of their people. However I say all this not having played the class at all yet. I just hit level 9 on my build and waiting on DM approval of my biography to take level 10 and TK class.

The fact that the bonus feat doesn't even come from the Fighter list is pretty awful imo. Also, to be honest I disagree with one thing the guild leader has said, in that I actually like Guarding The Lord, I know mechanically its kind of lame, but I like it as an RP tool and it fits the class well.

I see where you are coming from. But that still shouldn't stop a few tweaks being made to the class at bare minimum, to make it a little more viable to build with. Not to mention Thayan knights have never been treated like Nobility RP wise on server.

[SBlack]

Sup Rask,

I can't / wont comment on the other stuff as it would ruffle feathers one side or another or inbetween.

===I will say that I have very much enjoyed RPing with the Thayans and always have===

The Thayan Knight class is a very powerful prc actually, it just does not combo as easily as some others might. It specializes more in defense and guarding the wizards they are sworn to. If I thought I'd enjoy playing a thayan knight longterm I definitely would. It just isn't the type of RP that I enjoy on a session by session basis.

[Calodan]

Not to mention Thayan knights have never been treated like Nobility RP wise on server.

There was never a DM ruling concerning that until last night. It is just in so you would not have seen that yet. It will begin to trickle in game as more TKs apply. I know that myself and Chad both applied to be TKs. Just waiting on the DMs to decide if we are sincere and doing our homework I guess.

[Azure]

In my opinion, and minus the Red Wizard class, I do not necessarily see the need to enforce class restrictions on anyone who wants to be a part of a guild. That being said, I am somewhat illiterate when it comes to Thay, and so I am unsure of how strictly the Red Wizards might adhere to their own codes of conduct when it comes to choosing their warrior protectors.

I find this rule rather peculiar, and I honestly cannot think of any other guild where it's mandatory to take a class in order to be a member. For example, one is not required to take Harper Agent to become a Harper, nor is a Thieves' Guild member required to take rogue(which is probably a good thing, because the TG would surely have keeled over and died under a similar rule).

Given the immense workload and difficulty in maintaining the activity of a guild(and I should know, having only been able to manage running one for a year before becoming burnt out), I can certainly empathize with your predicament, especially considering that your core Red Wizard members are already required to take the Red Wizard PRC(understandably so). Whether or not the Thayan Knight class is underpowered, or not, is a rather moot point to me, because, quite simply, guilds have a hard enough time finding members and staying active, even without class restrictions. Compound these, not one, but two class restrictions on a single guild, not to mention this is a guild that has such a lore-heavy focus, and it's not difficult to see how you might struggle to maintain a presence.

As far as I'm concerned the powers that be should consider easing up on this rule, as long as it doesn't severely compromise the lore behind the guild that is.

[Rask]

In my opinion, and minus the Red Wizard class, I do not necessarily see the need to enforce class restrictions on anyone who wants to be a part of a guild. That being said, I am somewhat illiterate when it comes to Thay, and so I am unsure of how strictly the Red Wizards might adhere to their own codes of conduct when it comes to choosing their warrior protectors.

I find this rule rather peculiar, and I honestly cannot think of any other guild where it's mandatory to take a class in order to be a member. For example, one is not required to take Harper Agent to become a Harper, nor is a Thieves' Guild member required to take rogue(which is probably a good thing, because the TG would surely have keeled over and died under a similar rule).

Given the immense workload and difficulty in maintaining the activity of a guild(and I should know, having only been able to manage running one for a year before becoming burnt out), I can certainly empathize with your predicament, especially considering that your core Red Wizard members are already required to take the Red Wizard PRC(understandably so). Whether or not the Thayan Knight class is underpowered, or not, is a rather moot point to me, because, quite simply, guilds have a hard enough time finding members and staying active, even without class restrictions. Compound these, not one, but two class restrictions on a single guild, not to mention this is a guild that has such a lore-heavy focus, and it's not difficult to see how you might struggle to maintain a presence.

As far as I'm concerned the powers that be should consider easing up on this rule, as long as it doesn't severely compromise the lore behind the guild that is.

I actually did not know that. I had always assumed that was a prerequisite. This is actually a really good example of some of the things we were getting at with this.

I also would like to clarify a small point: Despite the argument against having the TK class mandatory for each knight, we do require that they aren't spellcasters, so we have no "gish" builds or anything like that in the knights. Even the ones that do not take TK levels are still all fighter builds.

[Asmodea]

I find this rule rather peculiar, and I honestly cannot think of any other guild where it's mandatory to take a class in order to be a member. For example, one is not required to take Harper Agent to become a Harper, nor is a Thieves' Guild member required to take rogue(which is probably a good thing, because the TG would surely have keeled over and died under a similar rule).

I admit the way I read the ruling (Which may be wrong!) is that if you take the Thayan Knight class you get to be automatically Thayan Nobility and while you are free to join the Enclave without the class you don't get the automatic Thayan prestige without it.

That all said! I have to echo this point: CK has no mechanical Lore requirement for members. Harpers are not required to be Harper Agents. Sharrans Shadow Weave users, Etc. I like the idea of there being -advantages- to people who want to explore the deeper RP, but if the intended ruling (Which I don't think it is! But I might be wrong!) is that inorder to be part of the Thayan Enclave's martial forces you need to take Thayan Knight then I think it is a poor move. Some DM clarification might be nice!

As a side note: IG wise everyone will call 'Thayan warriors' who are pledged to the enclave and guarding Red Wizards 'Thayan Knights' anyway; the only headache I can see is if someone has already got a back story going about being Thayan Nobility but doesn't have the Thayan Knight class, in which case could that be solved just by applying for the nobility separately?

[Hoihe]

I say, we take Thayan Knight and change it to be fighter 2.0, so that the class serves its sole purpose: it's a quick and dirty confirmation for the DMs to decide whether a character wrote and had their application accepted to be nobility or not. Could also give it the Body guard's stats progression/stats, condensed down.

[Flasmix]

There's not much I really have to Thay on the matter.

The class is underwhelming from just a casual glance.

[Asmodea]

There's not much I really have to Thay on the matter.

The class is underwhelming from just a casual glance.

Could maybe it be changed literally to just 'Fighter' with a different name? If the entire Thayan Guild wants it I can't see that as being at all unbalanced. Just as a spit ball idea.

[Laughingman]

Just create a new rank

Red wizard > Thayan Knight > Thayan Guard

Bgtscc custom lore: In (ig current year) the Thayan enclave in Baldur's Gate began adopting the cultural military style of their local hosts and hired local mercenaries as semi permanent guards to serve as the rank and file below knights.

[Rask]

To clarify something: We do have "Thayan Agents" who are of other classes than fighter/wizard that are -sort of- part of the Enclave. But it's more like they are affiliated with the Enclave rather than actually being part of the guild.

The way we got around this in the past was that some of the Thayan warriors/knights protecting wizards were slaves. We are no longer allowed to do this RP wise in the rules any longer. Which I am fine with personally, but not being able to be part of the knights without taking the class makes the options far more narrow with the two rules combined.

[Rask]

I say, we take Thayan Knight and change it to be fighter 2.0, so that the class serves its sole purpose: it's a quick and dirty confirmation for the DMs to decide whether a character wrote and had their application accepted to be nobility or not. Could also give it the Body guard's stats progression/stats, condensed down.

You could take this one step further, make it a Feat (Given by DM.) that both denotes the rank, and gives the "guarding the lord" ability....done.

Also submitting a huge backstory shouldn't be necessary. If someone wishes to RP their way into it from scratch, they should be able to do so as well. But that's just me personally. Less restrictions toward joining various factions/guilds the better. Easier for new players to get where they want to be.

[thids]

Okay, some thoughts on this, as someone who has played knights and wizards in the past.

Recently, as a guild, we had decided to no longer enforce a few previous rules with the guild. The main one being that we no longer required a knight to have to take the Thayan Knight class. I realize this sounds weird, but it actually makes a lot of sense once you look at the class mechanically.

I am a bit confused, I thought that the guild wasn't the one enforcing it in the first place? I mean the very first and basic rule of this server covers this: "Rp your sheet", and then you get the fact that it's an app only class/concept.

The reason we made this choice, was completely mechanical. The class stinks. That is actually an understatement honestly, it's a garbage fire. It is more beneficial to take 5 levels of straight fighter, or literally any other class, mechanically speaking. We did away with this because it was almost impossible to find any player who would join the faction as a knight due to this. The class was bad, it restricted their build, it made their character -worse- for choosing it. On top of all this, as said earlier, we are the most visible bad guys on the server. Which makes us a constant target for PVP or generally being threatened, challenged, insulted, ect ect. If you put all this together, it is a recipe for less fun for a lot of people.

It is not a garbage class. It could use a minor buff, but it is far from garbage. You can make good builds with it. Trying to squeeze Thayan Knight into a fundamentally bad build will not make that build better though. I can come up with 5+ TK builds on the spot which do their job in a supreme manner and wipe the floor with majority of other melee builds in 80% of the cases. The problem seems to be that most people aren't aware of what the Thayan Knight job and role is. As a Thayan Knight, your job is to work in a tandem with Red Wizards (and other members of their usual entourage, but primarily the Red Wizards). You are supposed to count on being buffed to godhood while out and about, instead of expecting to be a standalone juggernaut. If you, as a knight, are caught with your Red Wizard in a hostile situation, and you aren't buffed, someone is not pulling their weight in the symbiotic relationship of a Knight and a Wizard. It is the very concept of the Thayan Knight.

Now, we had asked previously (a few times over the years.) to have the Thayan Knight class retooled or looked at to be more in line with other classes. So far this has not happened. The class is still awful and severely under powered. This is ultimately what pushed us to no longer enforcing the rule that to RP a knight, you MUST take the knight class. Honestly though, as a visible evil, we already have it hard enough as it is, having to mechanically, play as significantly weaker builds that everyone else just makes the whole thing that much worse. Not to mention even that the Red Wizard class is also woefully under powered compared to the likes of Archmage. But that is far less of an issue in comparison to the Thayan Knight problem.

Once again, it is not awful and it is not severely under powered. Some minor things could be brushed up, but in general it is a decent 5 level PrC.

Well, we had been playing with this changed rule in our faction for a while now, and out of the blue the DM team has sent us a message, saying that we must begin to enforce the Thayan Knight rule again. This has completely nullified one of my characters (My main.) entirely RP wise. Her entire backstory, everything, "poof", immediately voided. Weeks of work gone.

I feel for you, wasting time on a background only to have it null and void sucks big time... But if you were making a Thayan Knight without planning to take the class, weren't you basically trying to break the "RP your sheet" rule? Yes, we have an exception on this server no one likes to talk about, but that exception is there due to it being a Vanilla class which was left alone for far too long. That doesn't mean that the rule is null and void for every other class/concept. Would you RP a paladin without taking the levels of the paladin class? If you want/need help with your background or your lore my inbox is open.

But I digress, that is not even really the central issue we take on this. The fact is, we have tried, and tried, and tried for years to get Thayan Knight, and to a lesser extent, Red Wizard, looked at to bring them more in line. We were brushed off, denied, told "No" time and time again. So we took the matter into our own hands as a guild, and simply stopped enforcing the Thayan Knight rule. Now we are being forced to enforce it, causing not only a few people to not be able to play their characters any longer, but also significantly weakening ourselves mechanically again.

You are not enforcing it, the DM team is. It is a server rule, players don't enforce those.

Also submitting a huge backstory shouldn't be necessary. If someone wishes to RP their way into it from scratch, they should be able to do so as well.

One can never RP becoming a Thayan Knight on the server from scratch, unless they stick to it for years or RP taking their last steps towards becoming a Knight on the server. Becoming a Thayan Knight takes years of brainwashing and indoctrination, until you finally earn your tattoo(s). Like I said, if you need help with the background, I will gladly offer it. And there are quite a few of other Thay lore proficient players who would offer the same.

In my opinion, and minus the Red Wizard class, I do not necessarily see the need to enforce class restrictions on anyone who wants to be a part of a guild. That being said, I am somewhat illiterate when it comes to Thay, and so I am unsure of how strictly the Red Wizards might adhere to their own codes of conduct when it comes to choosing their warrior protectors.

I don't seen anyone forbidding the guild from recruiting characters, the rule simply says that a Thayan Knight must take the Thayan Knight class. There are other positions within the guild which aren't a knight or a wizard. One can make a "warrior" build without the TK, and RP it being a mercenary from Thay or a gladiator or whatever the guild wants make up as a position.

Thayan Knights are not simple warrior protectors, they are much more than that.