The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:14 pm
To continue discussion here and get some pooled opinions:
viewtopic.php?f=482&t=58046&start=30
viewtopic.php?f=482&t=58046&start=30
Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World
Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World BGTSCC Discussion Forum
https://bgtscc.net/
The Caravan idea...
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Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:09 pm
While I am sad about losing the ability to get from Soubar to FAI bypassing Wyrm's Crossing (and to Nashkel in fact) I personally would not like to see a caravan between all major settlements. Maybe if the poll had two or three differing levels of transport? Like, just between BG and Beregost, for instance. Turns Maltz's into a basic fetch quest so maybe XP reward can be lowered?
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:47 pm
Allright, let's look at this simple like. I like simple.
Definition of Caravan:
historical
a group of people, especially traders or pilgrims, traveling together across a desert in Asia or North Africa.
To me, this means a group of traders (usually with carts, wagons, etc) traveling from point A to point B, such as Baldur's Gate to Beregost.
Because they're going the same way, it makes sense that if they've got the room, they don't mind throwing your gear in the back of the wagon, and you traveling along with them, either riding in the cart as well, or walking along side, in exchange for a few coins.
Alternatively, you can join as a guard, for a portion of the proceeds from the trade or a simple payment (depending on designer choice). And of course, there is always the chance of an encounter with bandits, goblins, or anything else that may decide to take the caravan.
From an RP perspective, there are always merchants and factions that need goods or people sent from one area to another. Indeed, I think the Thavians were transporting something just yesterday, along with a pair of guards.
Personally, I'd love to see caravans established, and being able to either ride along, attack and/or defend the caravan (using the choice of PvE, PvP or both options at once prior to hiring on.)
Throw in that various groups either can use them to transport items worthy of RP (Thavians recently, maybe the Phoenix Company smithy eventually, or Doron Amar bows, etc) and you've got an interesting setup!
Definition of Caravan:
historical
a group of people, especially traders or pilgrims, traveling together across a desert in Asia or North Africa.
To me, this means a group of traders (usually with carts, wagons, etc) traveling from point A to point B, such as Baldur's Gate to Beregost.
Because they're going the same way, it makes sense that if they've got the room, they don't mind throwing your gear in the back of the wagon, and you traveling along with them, either riding in the cart as well, or walking along side, in exchange for a few coins.
Alternatively, you can join as a guard, for a portion of the proceeds from the trade or a simple payment (depending on designer choice). And of course, there is always the chance of an encounter with bandits, goblins, or anything else that may decide to take the caravan.
From an RP perspective, there are always merchants and factions that need goods or people sent from one area to another. Indeed, I think the Thavians were transporting something just yesterday, along with a pair of guards.
Personally, I'd love to see caravans established, and being able to either ride along, attack and/or defend the caravan (using the choice of PvE, PvP or both options at once prior to hiring on.)
Throw in that various groups either can use them to transport items worthy of RP (Thavians recently, maybe the Phoenix Company smithy eventually, or Doron Amar bows, etc) and you've got an interesting setup!
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:00 pm
Go for it, anything to save a bit more time... Walking from the Chiontar river to Nashkel and back is just... Meh... Meh... Meh... Someone tries to have an encounter? Meh, I need to click onwards towards the next quest NPC... DM shouts about things that interest my character? Meh, now the quests take 30-60 minutes longer to do...
SO yeah, go for Caravan. Or have some wizard sell cheap teleportation service. Or perhaps whatever flying creature... or What not.
SO yeah, go for Caravan. Or have some wizard sell cheap teleportation service. Or perhaps whatever flying creature... or What not.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:02 pm
Update to my original post: Why not have the same style of 'ambush' areas that Baldur's gate had?
If you were traveling from Point A to Point B, and were ambushed, a "random" zone would be where you arrived at, with NPCs attacking you.
Would that be a possibility? It wouldn't be completely random obviously, but it could be something along those lines.
If you were traveling from Point A to Point B, and were ambushed, a "random" zone would be where you arrived at, with NPCs attacking you.
Would that be a possibility? It wouldn't be completely random obviously, but it could be something along those lines.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:17 pm
I vote yes... anything that saves time and speeds the rate i can finish quests or grinds is grand.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:29 pm
I say yes solely for the fact it takes FOREVER to load into zones lately.. and frankly, cutting that travel time staring a screen down would be just wonderful.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:52 pm
I voted exactly for the same reasons I posted already. Hard to redo a detailed give and take discussion once more on a new thread. People should just read the linked thread.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:21 pm
My only thought with regard to fast travel is that it'll work either way.
If you want to pay for the travel (say, ten, twenty to twenty-five gold per screen?) as a passenger, go right ahead. It's no worse or better then paying a mage for a teleport. Honestly, why that isn't a service is a mystery to me.
Alternatively, you go as a guard, with a chance (RNG god strikes again!) of a potential ambush.
The details could be worked out in some weird way, but I figure the best (?) method would perhaps be the chances are greater the more people that go along and ask for a potential attack (they chose to go as a guard, not as a passenger). You could also raise the chances of a PvP engagement if both sides agreed to a PvP or PvPvE engagement rather then a straight PvE fight.
Just a thought.
If you want to pay for the travel (say, ten, twenty to twenty-five gold per screen?) as a passenger, go right ahead. It's no worse or better then paying a mage for a teleport. Honestly, why that isn't a service is a mystery to me.
Alternatively, you go as a guard, with a chance (RNG god strikes again!) of a potential ambush.
The details could be worked out in some weird way, but I figure the best (?) method would perhaps be the chances are greater the more people that go along and ask for a potential attack (they chose to go as a guard, not as a passenger). You could also raise the chances of a PvP engagement if both sides agreed to a PvP or PvPvE engagement rather then a straight PvE fight.
Just a thought.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:12 am
The idea that "walking" from our main cities and villages to one another, is a common activity, is totally OOC. The idea that one should be "forced" to encounter others on the Tradeway, is exactly that: forcing RP on others. We don't do that on BGTSCC, right?!? 
As well, the Sword Coast is notorious for being dangerous on the Tradeway, with bandits and goblins and gnolls...does anyone but effort into reading Forgotten Realms lore, for example, Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast?!?
The ACTUAL DISTANCES would take days to walk, and, considering few want to RP that realism, at least, installing Caravan would promote the sense of distance, in more realistic terms (even if it remains just as OOC to hop caravans multiple times in a session).
For your reference, I'll quote and place this here:
Subject: Movement Overland Depending on Pace
As well, the Sword Coast is notorious for being dangerous on the Tradeway, with bandits and goblins and gnolls...does anyone but effort into reading Forgotten Realms lore, for example, Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast?!?
The ACTUAL DISTANCES would take days to walk, and, considering few want to RP that realism, at least, installing Caravan would promote the sense of distance, in more realistic terms (even if it remains just as OOC to hop caravans multiple times in a session).
For your reference, I'll quote and place this here:
Subject: Movement Overland Depending on Pace
DM Nilbog wrote:Overland Movement in game RP Tool.
Overland Movement
Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement. Overland movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day. A day represents 8 hours of actual travel time. For rowed watercraft, a day represents 10 hours of rowing. For a sailing ship, it represents 24 hours.
Walk
A character can walk 8 hours in a day of travel without a problem. Walking for longer than that can wear him or her out (see Forced March, below).
Hustle
A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.
A fatigued character can’t run or charge and takes a penalty of –2 to Strength and Dexterity. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.
Run
A character can’t run for an extended period of time.
Attempts to run and rest in cycles effectively work out to a hustle.
Terrain
The terrain through which a character travels affects how much distance he or she can cover in an hour or a day (see Table: Terrain and Overland Movement). A highway is a straight, major, paved road. A road is typically a dirt track. A trail is like a road, except that it allows only single-file travel and does not benefit a party traveling with vehicles. Trackless terrain is a wild area with no paths.
Forced March
In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points ofnonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It’s possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
Mounted Movement
A mount bearing a rider can move at a hustle. The damage it takes when doing so, however, is lethal damage, not nonlethal damage. The creature can also be ridden in a forced march, but its Constitution checks automatically fail, and, again, the damage it takes is lethal damage. Mounts also become fatigued when they take any damage from hustling or forced marches.
See Table: Mounts and Vehicles for mounted speeds and speeds for vehicles pulled by draft animals.
To give you some examples of distances in game I have posted some samples below.
Trip Length One Way in Miles / Kilometers
FAI to Candlekeep via the road 150 Miles / 241.4 Kilometers
So given that information using the tables leaving the FAI to Candlekeep on a Light Horse will take you about 3 days.
FAI to Baldur's Gate 60 Miles / 96.5 Kilometers
FAI to Beregost 110 Miles / 177 Kilometers
FAI to Nashkel 230 Miles / 370.1 Kilometers
FAI to Triel 330 Miles / 531.0 Kilometers
FAI to Troll Claw 180 Miles / 289.6 Kilometers
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:53 am
The problem isn't "walking", it obviously doesn't make sense for most PCs to actually walk from one place to the other. The problem is "traveling takes time and things can happen along the way", even if you add bandits encounters to the caravan system it only accounts for one type of encounter, where are the friendly ones ? The surprising ones, the things that can throw you off-course ?
At the moment you have the choice to ignore events along the way on a case by case basis whereas putting a caravan system in amounts to "nothing happened along the way". Something you can already do by just passing by in areas where your PC has no business and nothing interesting happens for him, no one forces you to react along the way ! You are not alone on the server, allow people to interact with you instead of being set on your goals, whatever they may be.
At the moment you have the choice to ignore events along the way on a case by case basis whereas putting a caravan system in amounts to "nothing happened along the way". Something you can already do by just passing by in areas where your PC has no business and nothing interesting happens for him, no one forces you to react along the way ! You are not alone on the server, allow people to interact with you instead of being set on your goals, whatever they may be.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:08 am
C'mon Val...you mean you cannot script it that if 2 Players simultaneously take a Caravan, the System can't "drop" them into the same "encounters map," making for a random encounter?!? Gee...don't let me down mate!!Valefort wrote:The problem is "traveling takes time and things can happen along the way", even if you add bandits encounters to the caravan system it only accounts for one type of encounter, where are the friendly ones ? The surprising ones, the things that can throw you off-course ?
Valefort wrote:You are not alone on the server, allow people to interact with you instead of being set on your goals, whatever they may be.
Example 1: Cast Extended Invisibility, then Extended Haste. Speed grind the Quests. Log off.
Does a Caravan add or subtract from this activity? Because the activity itself won't change.Example 2: "Hey Steve...we're up in the Troll Hills eating green steak burgers...you want to come up here and slay?" Steve casts Haste and blows through 7–8 maps so he doesn't miss lunchtime. Does a Caravan add or subtract from this activity? Because the activity itself won't change.
Example 3: Morning, wake in Baldur's Gate. Afternoon, see what is happening in FAI. Evening, watching the stars in Nashkel in the gazebo on the high hill. Does a Caravan add or subtract from this activity? Because the activity itself won't change.
I could go on.
Look, please don't get me wrong, I'm all for random encounters and having Characters "out in the open" so interactions take place.
But that desire on my part, maybe others as well, is completely moot when you contrast it to the large number of private guild halls and disparate social centers, which both divide the low population (in general 75 to 95 players is a low population) and OOC force many together, just to have interaction!
Players WILLFULLY ignore events/other PCs. If you do not realize that, then...realize it!
The small circles of RP and for-lack-of-a-better-word cliquey behavior, proves my point. Not to mention also that having a sandbox with Levels spanning 1–30 does not help at all, in making relative and practical "centers" of mechanically appropriate gameplay, as well, even RP appropriate centers. If you do not want Caravans, I suggest further limiting either the Server in general—in FR land distance and options—or, limit the "social centers," by either actually pulling them from general use, or better yet, finding Staff-supported ways to PROMOTE certain Areas for respective Levels of PCs.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:16 am
Maybe we should change all the loading screens to caravan pictures, and we can pretend each transition is a caravan trip.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:44 am
Oh yeah define simultaneous please, i'll make you wait 10 minutes into an empty caravan interior, I won't let you downC'mon Val...you mean you cannot script it that if 2 Players simultaneously take a Caravan, the System can't "drop" them into the same "encounters map," making for a random encounter?!? Gee...don't let me down mate!!
About the examples you give, all of them can be interrupted, and by all means should, by impromptu RP along the way, no matter if you're hasted and invisible (which isn't quite a possibility for everyone btw). Or would your Orc hunter just pass by a bunch of orcs because you want to finish your quests ?
I know players willfully ignore events/other PCs sometimes, however I assume it's systematically for IC reasons, or at worst they can craft an IC reason on the spot. If that's not the case then ... please change !
Population divided among all the various towns and guild halls is another problem that has nothing to do with caravans as far as I understand.
Re: The Caravan idea...
Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:55 am
I don't like this idea as it takes away from an already included mechanic of teleport for a lot of classes.
Mirror Walk, shadow walk, tree stride, etc. There are a lot of ways for players to move around quickly, and it is expensive... far more expensive than 25 gold per zone.
If a fast travel is done, it should be expensive. 850 gold per trip. I know RP wise it is a ridiculous sum of gold, but for balance sake... why would I use teleport to get to Nashkel from Field of the Dead, when I can go one zone and hop on a caravan for 100 gold?
It's convenient, I admit having a caravan being the fast travel mechanic. We have the boats doing the same thing, but there isn't any other way of getting there.
I think I still stand on the no due to the fact the teleport mechanic to BGTSCC functions and works and it is widely used, taking that away would be bad.
Mirror Walk, shadow walk, tree stride, etc. There are a lot of ways for players to move around quickly, and it is expensive... far more expensive than 25 gold per zone.
If a fast travel is done, it should be expensive. 850 gold per trip. I know RP wise it is a ridiculous sum of gold, but for balance sake... why would I use teleport to get to Nashkel from Field of the Dead, when I can go one zone and hop on a caravan for 100 gold?
It's convenient, I admit having a caravan being the fast travel mechanic. We have the boats doing the same thing, but there isn't any other way of getting there.
I think I still stand on the no due to the fact the teleport mechanic to BGTSCC functions and works and it is widely used, taking that away would be bad.