Building Mechanics

Dagesh · Unread post by **Dagesh** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:31 am

Hello all,
I was wondering what the community knew in terms of basic build mechanics that should be taken into consideration when making most builds at least for PVM on BGTSCC.

For example, what is a flurry and how does it affect things like sneak attack? What BAB is good for dual-wielding? For ranged? Why? What amount of AC is workable for the server? What is a decent DC for caster builds?

As a note, this topic is NOT for posting your favorite builds. Link to examples to make a point, sure. This is meant as a primer for helping people create builds. Thanks in advance.

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:12 am

I feel like these things have been answered in the past, but I suppose nothing too easy to find necessarily.

Dagesh wrote:what is a flurry and how does it affect things like sneak attack?

Each attack round consists of 3, 2-second flurries. The impact on sneak attack is that out of HiPS only attacks in the first flurry count as sneak attacks. This is why TWF is less important for Feinters, since all their attacks will be sneak if feint is successful.

Dagesh wrote:What BAB is good for dual-wielding?

It depends... If you are full melee and do not have sneak attack, or minimal sneak attack you want 26 for 6 APR. However, if you don't reach ~45 AB 21-25 is fine since the 6th attack will generally only land on a 20. If you have high sneak attack and HiPS you want a minimum of 21 to reach 10 total APR with PTWF which will give you 4 attacks in the first flurry. Your final AB is more important than your BAB since that is what determines how many attacks hit. Each subsequent attack from each hand is at -5 so if you reach 45 AB your first attack is at +45, 2nd at +40, 6th attack is only +20, so against AC 36 mobs you need a 16 or better to hit on the last attack. For PTWF characters you probably won't reach 45 AB even on full BAB classes. For example, assuming 30 DEX after gear you might have 30 (BAB) + 10 (DEX) + 4 (EB) - 2 (PTWF) = 42 before any feats or bonuses from classes/PRC's. This is generally fine since you have 12 APR vs. 6 for a STR based character. More chances to hit means you will likely still hit about twice as often, though your damage is likely less than half per hit. Generally without sneak attack, Inspire Courage, Bane of Enemies or some other form of damage increase per hit dual wielding is always inferior to one weapon either gaining damage from two handing or AC from a shield.

Dagesh wrote: For ranged? Why?

My opinion is that Ranged wants 48 AB because Manyshot = -8 to all attacks. This can be lower, once again, if you have HiPS since you can deny the enemies dex and dodge to AC.

Dagesh wrote:What amount of AC is workable for the server?

For straight melee my opinion is you want 50 AC minimum. I know when I am at about 42-44 AC outside the Nashkel Mines I can have mirror images drop quickly when several mobs spawn in a location while 51 AC is generally fine. Mirror Images, Displacement, HiPS and Epic Dodge (I'm sure I am forgetting others) are all things that can allow you to be fine with lower AC so it is very dependent upon your build. HiPS Archers don't need much AC since they can generally avoid taking many attacks while Wizards and Bards can make themselves nearly immune to physical attacks for at least a decent amount of time, making AC irrelevant in some circumstances. (case in point, "the Naked Bard" that M3ntalist posted a long while ago)

Dagesh wrote:What is a decent DC for caster builds?

For blasters and buffers it is irrelevant. For true DC casters the answer is 'as high as possible' since generally the spells are save or 'x' where a save means you have wasted the spell. You really want 40+ since any given mob will have at least one of the 3 saving throws at ~20. However, depending on your build you may not be able to hit 40, so it really is just figuring out any possible way to squeeze an extra point of DC here or there. Druids and Spirit Shamans have the easiest time of increasing DC's in my opinion, but I have heard of Clerics with 44 DC's and Wizards can get up there if they make use of Shadow Adept and Blood Magus, as well as Red Wizard and to a lesser extent, ArchMage.

Dagesh · Unread post by **Dagesh** » Wed May 03, 2017 10:08 am

I feel like these things have been answered in the past, but I suppose nothing too easy to find necessarily.

I was hoping for a compendium of sorts. On top of that, if builders know things that beginners should know but don't ask, that could be added here too.
--

10 Attacks per round gets 4 attacks in the first flurry. How is that determined? How many attacks in the rest of the flurries (Ex. 10 = 4|3|3 or 4|4|2)?

Generally without sneak attack, Inspire Courage, Bane of Enemies or some other form of damage increase per hit dual wielding is always inferior to one weapon either gaining damage from two handing or AC from a shield.

That makes a lot of sense and is really helpful.

What bonuses does the server have to AC in spells/gear? AB? Damage?

AC = 10 Base + Ability + Natural + Dodge + Deflection + Shield + Armor
AB = BAB + Ability + Enhancement Bonus + Greater Heroism + ??
Damage = Weapon + Enhancement Bonus + Sneak Attack + Class Bonuses + ??

Which of the above bonuses can be assumed for most builds?

Sun Wukong · Unread post by **Sun Wukong** » Wed May 03, 2017 10:35 am

Dagesh wrote:I was hoping for a compendium of sorts. On top of that, if builders know things that beginners should know but don't ask, that could be added here too.
--

10 Attacks per round gets 4 attacks in the first flurry. How is that determined? How many attacks in the rest of the flurries (Ex. 10 = 4|3|3 or 4|4|2)?

Code: Select all

BAB 0:         Two-Weapon Fighting:
1 | 0 | 0      1 | 1 | 0
BAB 6:         Improved Two-Weapon Fighting:
1 | 1 | 0      2 | 1 | 1
BAB 11:        Greater Two-Weapon Fighting:
1 | 1 | 1      2 | 2 | 2
BAB 16:
2 | 1 | 1      3 | 2 | 2
BAB 21:        Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting:
2 | 2 | 1      4 | 3 | 3
BAB 26:
2 | 2 | 2      4 | 4 | 4

Dagesh wrote:What bonuses does the server have to AC in spells/gear? AB? Damage?

AC = 10 Base + Ability + Natural + Dodge + Deflection + Shield + Armor
AB = BAB + Ability + Enhancement Bonus + Greater Heroism + ??
Damage = Weapon + Enhancement Bonus + Sneak Attack + Class Bonuses + ??

Which of the above bonuses can be assumed for most builds?

You can get +4 from items, this goes for Ability Bonuses, Natural AC, Dodge AC, Deflection AC, Shield AC, Armor AC, and Weapon Enchantment Bonus. You can get higher bonuses through spells. Usually it is relatively simple to get your hands on some +3 Equipment, so I tend to build with the assumption that I am going to make use of +3 equipment for most of the character's career. Which means you have to look at the Custom Changes, New Classes, and New Feats to actually know what you can get on top.

Valefort · Unread post by **Valefort** » Wed May 03, 2017 11:13 am

If you're dual wielding and you have 10 attacks in your round then the flurries will be 4/3/3, the total number of attacks is divided by 3 and the remaining is added to the first flurry.

This is counter intuitive but all main hand attacks are done before the off hand attacks. So in that scenario your first 5 attacks will be your main hand attacks, with their corresponding decreasing AB, and then off-hand attacks sequence begins.

AC wise gear offer up to +4 bonus, in all slots : natural, deflection, dodge, enchantment (armor and shield).

With the epic shops in game it is possible for anyone to buy such items, eventually (they're still expensive).

Enhancement bonus on weapons is limited at +4, with +5 weapons against X race existing.

Generally speaking a meleer without tricks will be playable with 45 AC and 40 AB throughout the server, damage wise 25 per hit is what I consider a minimum if you use one weapon otherwise the DR on some monsters will really be painful.

Spells can offer various bonuses.

Natural Armor : +9 with tortoise shell (druid, sshaman), otherwise wizards, rangers and cleric with the right domains can get +5 natural armor.

Deflection : spells offer up to +5 deflection

Dodge : too many spells to list, bonuses are usually small though as dodge AC stacks with everything.

Enchantment : Mage armor (+4), improved mage armor (+6), shield (+4), magic vestment (+5).

Dagesh · Unread post by **Dagesh** » Wed May 03, 2017 4:46 pm

WIP

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ARMOR CLASS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hidden: show

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ATTACK BONUS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hidden: show

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ATTACKS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hidden: show

Vermilion · Unread post by **Vermilion** » Wed May 03, 2017 4:51 pm

From the custom changes to the server thread, here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49041

chambordini wrote:Halfplate base armor class increased to 8
Chain Mail base armor class increased to 6
Splint Mail base armor class increased to 7
Banded Mail base armor class increased to 7
Scale Mail's base armor class increased to 5
Hide Armor max DEX bonus increased to 5

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Wed May 03, 2017 4:52 pm

Some classes give bonuses to AB, AC, Saves or damage, here are the custom classes:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49035

Some feats do as well:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49036

Vanilla class and feat bonuses are available by googling the class/feat in question or going to the NWN2 wiki. However, there are some custom changes which are here:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49041

Sun Wukong · Unread post by **Sun Wukong** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:10 pm

Ice-troll Berserker for Barbarians - it gives from 2 to 8 points of Natural Armor when you use rage.

Dagesh · Unread post by **Dagesh** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:17 pm

What's the deal with crossbows and their feats that modify them? Halfling can hold large crossbows. Are there other differences to them?

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:35 pm

Dagesh wrote:What's the deal with crossbows and their feats that modify them? Halfling can hold large crossbows. Are there other differences to them?

Not sure I understand the question. Basically crossbows are limited to 1 APR... Taking Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot can get you to 3 APR, 4 with Haste. Crossbow Sniper feats can allow you to apply DEX to damage so even though you have fewer attacks than a bow archer, you can still do solid damage. Fantastic in the mid levels, but falls off in the epics is my understanding, though I have never played one so can't speak from experience.

V'rass · Unread post by **V'rass** » Thu May 04, 2017 2:33 pm

If you want to fight melee you need at minimum 40-45 ac. 50+ is better but you can get away with 40-45 if you are careful and dont try to fight multiple enemies at once.

Dagesh · Unread post by **Dagesh** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:34 am

What's the word on damage? To put it another way, what are the things that offer damage for different class types? If you want to include arcane, that's fine although I may be asking a number of arcane questions in the future.

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:34 pm

Essentially you need some way of applying consistent damage. If you have a DEX based character with 6d6 sneak dice and no Epic Precision at level 30, you are going to struggle if that is your only source of damage. Basically you want to get your damage per strike up to at least high 30's by max level to handle DR on epic mobs.

For Bards it's easy since they can build for high strength and rarely need to use a shield, but even with a shield they have Inspire Courage for +5 hit/damage, as well as sonic weapon for 1d4 and other situational spells.

A favorite melee build mixes Weapon Master and Frenzied Berzerker such as the F14/WM8/FB5/R3. This gives you +8 damage from Fighter Feats and, when not using a shield you can use Enhanced improved power attack from FB for +20 damage (which does apply on a crit). However, the insanely good Critical numbers are balanced by the fact that such a build tends to have low-ish AC, which can be addressed by getting a +4 Tower Shield and also has crap saves, which can be addressed partially with smart acquisition of bonus saves gear. My opinion is that the above build would be easily 'fixed' by giving up the feat eating Weapon Master and 2 levels of Fighter to make a F12/AK10/FB5/R3 (or WoD of course). It loses the critastic numbers, but gains some really nice saving throws.

Basically you can get damage from: Taking 12 levels of Fighter, wands of flame weapon, high STR, high INT with 5 levels of Swashbuckeler and/or Combat Insight, sneak/death attack dice with a reliable way to land sneak attacks, Inspire Courage, Power attack/IPA/EIPA, critical hits and numerous other class abilities and feats.

It would take a VERY long post to go over every single possible combination of damage calculations, I find the best way to do it is to start with your character concept and then figure out what classes can realize that concept while also attaining acceptable AC, AB, Damage and abilities that you want or need to be successful.

Dagesh · Unread post by **Dagesh** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:31 pm

That's good stuff. Thanks chad##'s.

So for damage we're looking at (in no particular order):
Sneak Attack (Rogue and certain PrCs)
Death Attack (certain PrCs)
Ability
-STR (melee/Mighty/thrown)
-DEX from Xbow feats
-INT from SB feat or Combat Insight
Weapons
Ammo
Enhancement (GMW included)
Spells
Bard Inspiration
Fighter Feats
Ranger Favored Enemy

Is there anything else to add to the list?

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