Add Gray Guards?

[Argumantive]

I want to propuse the implemantation of the gray guard PRC for paladins, while not holding much mechanical power, I think it might be a good addition in order to shake up the existing RP on the server, adding much needed, in my opinion, gray.

http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/gray-guard

I would suggest removing the first level Sacrament of trust be replaced with one level of spellcasting, making it 6/10 prog class since atonement does not exist on BG.

Also by doing so, only those fully devoted to the class can gain the sacrament of true faith, making them true Gray guards.

Since Kaedrins harming touch feats are not implemented I would suggest adding another boon to replace them, per QC decisions, though personally, I would think it would be something along the line of offensive feats, distinguishing this class's more agressive nature compared to the valiant defender.

In addition to serving the RP porpuse, I believe all of it's feature, already exist with the current mechanics. (smite infidel used for unbound justice?)

I would love to hear any feedback regarding the matter.


Just to make things clear, lore and source are all from Complete Scoundrel supplement pp.40-42

[Deathgrowl]

I'm concerned about how this will make paladins justify all sorts of vile stuff. I realise the description says "This trust does not grant you the freedom to act as violently or immorally as you wish", but eh... It's a bit vague.

The paladin code is fairly simple and manages to not leave too much up for interpretation. Don't lie, don't cheat, don't willingly work alongside evil, etc...

[Argumantive]

I think this is the whole point of Gray Guards, to go outside the code,

They do not need to justify themselves, nor answer to anyone but their god, as long as what was done was not for personal benefit, but for a specific purpose, Gray Guards put their god above the concept of Good.

A variant to the Paladin is first a warrior of good then a servant of his god, put into a a Gray Guard is first a servant of his god, then a servant of the greater good.

for example, while he might prefer to fight Honorably in fair combat, he will nto miss an opportunity to kill an enemy in a dark alley staging it as a mugging gone wrong, provided that is an enemy of his church.

[Calodan]

I think this is the whole point of Gray Guards, to go outside the code,

They do not need to justify themselves, nor answer to anyone but their god, as long as what was done was not for personal benefit, but for a specific purpose, Gray Guards put their god above the concept of Good.

A variant to the Paladin is first a warrior of good then a servant of his god, put into a a Gray Guard is first a servant of his god, then a servant of the greater good.

for example, while he might prefer to fight Honorably in fair combat, he will nto miss an opportunity to kill an enemy in a dark alley staging it as a mugging gone wrong, provided that is an enemy of his church.

I.E. Hoarite Paladin. Hoarites are often outcasts from society and looked upon with disdain by most orders, they are the people's champions often dishing out vigilante justice on rulers, mayors and other people of power who are corrupt.

Truth be told if this were implemented I would have made Kory a paladin/grey guard it is just the fitting RP in the whole for Hoar RP. Helm is also LN and would have these as part of his pantheon of warriors. There are plenty of excellent choices that fit RP and would be really neat. Combined with the paladin kits this could be a great combo for RP and fun.

Deathgrowl - Potential for abuse is no reason to stop something. People abuse everything the idea is to give the players options. If they are abusing it other players should be expected just like with PvP or any RP to take screen shots and send a PRIVATE MESSAGE TO THE STAFF over it. We need to stop treating the player base like toddlers it only makes them act like toddlers. See Pygmalion effect or Rosenthal effect. If we expect and treat the player base like it is mature it will indeed rise to this.

[Argumantive]

I would agree Hoarite Paladins will be the most probable to take the class, but Tyrans and any others might give their most dedicated paladins, not ones dissatisfied with the code, but those who are devout to it, to join their own cadres of Gray Guards exactly in order to deal with the situations others of their faith can't.

[Calodan]

I would agree Hoarite Paladins will be the most probable to take the class, but Tyrans and any others might give their most dedicated paladins, not ones dissatisfied with the code, but those who are devout to it, to join their own cadres of Gray Guards exactly in order to deal with the situations others of their faith can't.

Tyr is LG. I would argue that Grey Guards among his ranks are uber rare actually. He would have true paladins by the code.

Think more Neutral. True Neutral gods would have them, LN gods because there has to be a reason in the dogma for the Paladin to occasionally be out of code but within the dogma thus not becoming fallen because his god would allow that.

In fact a PRC requirement could be Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral gods only. They are the ones likely to have the Grey Guards. One might argue a CG or CN god as well. Just no evil god.

[Argumantive]

That's the main flavour of the class though, the PnP requirement is LG and nothing else. The Gray Guard stays lawfull good, and for the lack of better term I would say he is immune to aligment shifts as long as he does his deeds under a just cause, and in LG churches these orders will be secretive, admitting only the most devout and zealous paladins.

As of the reasons within the dogma, A gray Guard is a being that cares of the greater good over only good in any deed, thus to prevent a greater disaster, sacrifices must be made at times.

[Deathgrowl]

Deathgrowl - Potential for abuse is no reason to stop something. People abuse everything the idea is to give the players options. If they are abusing it other players should be expected just like with PvP or any RP to take screen shots and send a PRIVATE MESSAGE TO THE STAFF over it. We need to stop treating the player base like toddlers it only makes them act like toddlers. See Pygmalion effect or Rosenthal effect. If we expect and treat the player base like it is mature it will indeed rise to this.

No, that's fair. I agree.

The morals of a Gray Guard will still need to be a little bit policed, though. You can't keep torturing people and expect to stay blessed, just to take a clear example.

[Calodan]

Deathgrowl - Potential for abuse is no reason to stop something. People abuse everything the idea is to give the players options. If they are abusing it other players should be expected just like with PvP or any RP to take screen shots and send a PRIVATE MESSAGE TO THE STAFF over it. We need to stop treating the player base like toddlers it only makes them act like toddlers. See Pygmalion effect or Rosenthal effect. If we expect and treat the player base like it is mature it will indeed rise to this.

No, that's fair. I agree.

The morals of a Gray Guard will still need to be a little bit policed, though. You can't keep torturing people and expect to stay blessed, just to take a clear example.

I fully agree! We are not talking about a evil warrior of Helm or any god. This is a guy who walks the line for the good of all. PUnisher style. Batman style. ALmost a vigilante but has a code of honor.

[Vermilion]

Before a character enters this prestige class, his player and the DM should discuss and agree on what acts constitute gross abuse.

I agree with Deathgrowl, this potential PRC would need to have a very firm set of rules on what is considered a violation.

I think there'd be a potentially lucrative sideline for someone willing to play a cleric of Hoar willing to provide atonement services for the sadly necessary needs perpetrated by our new roster of Dark Knights in the name of justice and the greater good.

[Argumantive]

Before a character enters this prestige class, his player and the DM should discuss and agree on what acts constitute gross abuse.

I agree with Deathgrowl, this potential PRC would need to have a very firm set of rules on what is considered a violation.

I think there'd be a potentially lucrative sideline for someone willing to play a cleric of Hoar willing to provide atonement services for the sadly necessary needs perpetrated by our new roster of Dark Knights in the name of justice and the greater good.

Ahm guys, I think you are missing the class point actually, this is a Paladin only PRC, with LG and code of onduct required to enter it.

As of setting firm rules to enter it, it is kind of destroying the whole fluff of the class, which is centered on a LG character, being set free from limitation

If in order to enter the class, you need a firm set of rules, you can just stay a paladin and not bother with making the class :X


Debilitating Touch (Su): At 2nd level, you learn to channel your lay on hands ability into a painful touch attack. Many gray guards use debilitating touch during interrogation, since it reduces the target’s ability to successfully bluff or resist magical effects. Using debilitating touch does not provoke attacks of opportunity. An opponent hit by this attack is sickened for 5 rounds. Using this ability costs 5 points of your daily healing allotment. A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + your gray guard level + your Cha modiier) negates the effect.

They got specific abilities to torture and are exempt from repercussions, if even torture is allowed, what code of conduct would you want to police them with?

[chad878262]

This would seem to indicate requiring it to be an application only class which I think in general we should stay away from. I also wonder if there abilities are so different that it truly requires a PRC or kit or if it is just a specific order of Paladins? If it is an order within certain sects than it only requires someone to build one and RP it out and try to get more players interested in the RP.

Honestly Paladin already got two kits and the upcoming Harper Scout PRC is Paladin/Ranger only so I think we would be better off looking elsewhere for no class/PRC RP opportunities for the server.

In the past year and a half or so we have added Hierophant, Phantom, Paladin Kits, upgraded Barbarian and Swashbuckler, adding Harper PRC's, upgraded Black Flame Zealot and I'm sure I am forgetting some... While Phantom is rogue-like I think it might be nice to come up with some Thief-y PRC's. Most of the ones we have, outside of Whirling Dervish are pretty RP heavy IMO (Shadow Dancer would require some connection or training / use of the shadow weave...Trained murderer, etc.)... Would be nice to see some kind of Thief PRC focusing on Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Setting and removing Traps, etc. Not duplicating granting skill focus feats, WD already does this, but maybe offering something different... Like a Bounty Hunter that gets special traps (ala BGII) or a quick thief that can disable traps and open locks in half the time (not sure if that is even possible, just spit-balling). I don't know, but I am sure there are options out there such as True Thief from PnP that we could adapt for our server.

Personally I think it'd also be nice to expand Guild Thief's feat options, especially adding some epic feat selections for the 4th level feat would be welcome.

Then again, the other option that I think would be fantastic would be to start combing through the backlog of never implemented classes/PRC's and to make a decision on if they should be scrapped, or finished and implemented. A lot of other things coming up in the next couple months so maybe that is a discussion better left for QC sometime late summer.

[Argumantive]

This would seem to indicate requiring it to be an application only class which I think in general we should stay away from. I also wonder if there abilities are so different that it truly requires a PRC or kit or if it is just a specific order of Paladins? If it is an order within certain sects than it only requires someone to build one and RP it out and try to get more players interested in the RP.

Honestly Paladin already got two kits and the upcoming Harper Scout PRC is Paladin/Ranger only so I think we would be better off looking elsewhere for no class/PRC RP opportunities for the server.

In the past year and a half or so we have added Hierophant, Phantom, Paladin Kits, upgraded Barbarian and Swashbuckler, adding Harper PRC's, upgraded Black Flame Zealot and I'm sure I am forgetting some... While Phantom is rogue-like I think it might be nice to come up with some Thief-y PRC's. Most of the ones we have, outside of Whirling Dervish are pretty RP heavy IMO (Shadow Dancer would require some connection or training / use of the shadow weave...Trained murderer, etc.)... Would be nice to see some kind of Thief PRC focusing on Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Setting and removing Traps, etc. Not duplicating granting skill focus feats, WD already does this, but maybe offering something different... Like a Bounty Hunter that gets special traps (ala BGII) or a quick thief that can disable traps and open locks in half the time (not sure if that is even possible, just spit-balling). I don't know, but I am sure there are options out there such as True Thief from PnP that we could adapt for our server.

Personally I think it'd also be nice to expand Guild Thief's feat options, especially adding some epic feat selections for the 4th level feat would be welcome.

Then again, the other option that I think would be fantastic would be to start combing through the backlog of never implemented classes/PRC's and to make a decision on if they should be scrapped, or finished and implemented. A lot of other things coming up in the next couple months so maybe that is a discussion better left for QC sometime late summer.

On the abilities font mechanically what will be differant is the smith to be able to smite anyhting, like smite infidel.

The reason I suggest this class because unlike any paladin kit or PRC we have, It changes the characters RP, the lvl 10 sacrament of the true faith, makes this kind of paladin a character halfway to blackguard RPwise, yet still remains a paladin.
The main benefit of the class is that it gives paladin the option to stop being lawfull stupid (just my OWN opinion).
It won't require any development of unique skills, but it will aloow one to play such a paladin per the RP your char sheet rule to their heart's content.

[chad878262]

On the abilities font mechanically what will be differant is the smith to be able to smite anyhting, like smite infidel.

The reason I suggest this class because unlike any paladin kit or PRC we have, It changes the characters RP, the lvl 10 sacrament of the true faith, makes this kind of paladin a character halfway to blackguard RPwise, yet still remains a paladin.
The main benefit of the class is that it gives paladin the option to stop being lawfull stupid (just my OWN opinion).
It won't require any development of unique skills, but it will aloow one to play such a paladin per the RP your char sheet rule to their heart's content.

So mechanically speaking, you could have a Paladin 26/DC4 (for smite infidel) and it would work as a 'filler for the RP' build in the short term. So if I may make a suggestion I would recommend making a request to the DM team to work with you on coming up with fair, IC rules for a 'Grey Guard' Paladin of *insert your faith here*. This really seems to me to be more a question for DM's rather than a request for a PRC because it is absolutely a lore request, rather than a mechanical one. Lore is always on the DM side of the fence and before we go in to making such a PRC (*if we would do so*) it's important that the DM's have approved the lore background and the RP associated with it.

[Argumantive]

On the abilities font mechanically what will be differant is the smith to be able to smite anyhting, like smite infidel.

The reason I suggest this class because unlike any paladin kit or PRC we have, It changes the characters RP, the lvl 10 sacrament of the true faith, makes this kind of paladin a character halfway to blackguard RPwise, yet still remains a paladin.
The main benefit of the class is that it gives paladin the option to stop being lawfull stupid (just my OWN opinion).
It won't require any development of unique skills, but it will aloow one to play such a paladin per the RP your char sheet rule to their heart's content.

So mechanically speaking, you could have a Paladin 26/DC4 (for smite infidel) and it would work as a 'filler for the RP' build in the short term. So if I may make a suggestion I would recommend making a request to the DM team to work with you on coming up with fair, IC rules for a 'Grey Guard' Paladin of *insert your faith here*. This really seems to me to be more a question for DM's rather than a request for a PRC because it is absolutely a lore request, rather than a mechanical one. Lore is always on the DM side of the fence and before we go in to making such a PRC (*if we would do so*) it's important that the DM's have approved the lore background and the RP associated with it.

I suggested the PRC mainly because it is a PnP concept which exists and not a homebrew idea, What I am looking for is mainly the sacrament of the new faith feat, which gives immunity to falling or alignment shifts for the Gray Guard paladin.


Also mechanic wise, As I recall smite infidel in your scenario will give 4 bonus dmg, on a 20 pally/10 GG, it will be full smite progression vs any alignment.