Rogue Kits Please.

[Mallore]

Hi!


The Idea is to do rogue kits. Kits however for rogue should kick in at Level 10 and go to level 20. So at Rogue Level 10 you can select your first kit and keep going. This will not increase power of all those builds and classes that use rogue currently as a dip to meet other prc requirements.

The Kits would be.

Conman (Confidence Man)
- Perhaps its 20th ability is a bonus to Bluff and Feint. a deadly fainter....
- This kit is the fast talker, the silver tongue, the wit and wiseful and liars of the world

Thug. (Made Man)
- Perhaps this kit would have a better AB or Fort... be more a Str Rogue?
- This kit is the muscle in a gang, a robber or highway man bandit. She is aggressive. Physical.

Spy. (Secert Agent)
- Perhaps bonuses or abilities for spying, this PRC might get a Rogue 20 Hips.
- Spy, could be fancy dress in a court, or hiding on a wall in a barn. They work for someone!

Thief. (cat burglar)
- Maybe abilities to enter places, evade enemies and classic thief skills.
- think catburglers, avoiding violence, a tomb raider or specialized pick pocket, an expert

Jack of All Trades. (Smuggler)
- Skill bonuses, increased synergy bonuses, opens a lot of skills they don't have currently?
- This is the classic Han Solo Smugglers, or the Card Shark, Even a nobleman.

The Crimelord (godfather)
- Gives bonuses to his party members, leadership feats.
- Money men, Bookies, Soprano's. Gang leaders or even street organizers.


If someone wanted to go pure rogue, to say rouge 30, well at level 20 they can select a second kit.

I think this might be a good way to refresh a vanilla class on the server, give some interesting rp windows and some fun ways to build. Most of all, this refreshes a classic work horse class with new interesting mechanics, enjoyable and do not over power the server but address a wide variety of wishes and wants from players across the server. Build what you like and enjoy!

[Dagesh]

I would go for rogue 30 if something like these kits existed.

[aaron22]

while i love all the thought put into this and would not be offended if any or all of these kits were put in game, i just feel like all those can be made right now with different build combinations and RP styling.

[Dagesh]

Although that may be true, the idea is pure rogue. A number of pure base classes do quite well. Rogue is not one of them.

[ThornsM]

I thought the point of class kits was to heighten one aspect of the class while sacrifice another. What would be the sacrifice for these rogue kits? Or is this thought to be a different mechanic that just rewards minimal multi-classing?

[Mork]

I thought the point of class kits was to heighten one aspect of the class while sacrifice another. What would be the sacrifice for these rogue kits? Or is this thought to be a different mechanic that just rewards minimal multi-classing?

In my opinion being a rogue is sacrifice enough
(Never actually played one - but seen how their life is tough here)

[Mallore]

I thought the point of class kits was to heighten one aspect of the class while sacrifice another. What would be the sacrifice for these rogue kits? Or is this thought to be a different mechanic that just rewards minimal multi-classing?

Well, you are giving up PRC's or atleast taking 4... or what not or building room. We could use kits to promote class purity to expand the horizon of building.

I also see things like take the Thug example. Likely loses the ability to Set and Craft traps. Because well she isnt focused on that.

really this is one of the only classes still vanilla in this old game.. time to freshen it up a bit, exciting new non teir one making stuffz =)

[chad878262]

It is possible we could do certain things like reduce Skill Points to 4 per level for thug (in exchange for higher AB) or do other things depending on the kit. Honestly we haven't discussed Rogue kits yet and my guess is they are not on the horizon unless there is a big push for them. The problem is that rogue in general as a class gets just what it needs to do what it does fairly well (skill monkey and glass canon) and has a major weakness with regard to spells due to low fort/will saves. Take away the stuff a rogue gets like skills or special abilities and it is not much of a rogue any more. Give it other stuff for free and what is the point of playing a non-kitted version?

With Paladin Kits you can see clearly that they give up something important in exchange for the stuff they get, but taking Divinate as an example they have to take a useless feat and that is factored in to what they give up for free auto-extend as they level. For Rogue's something similar could be done with regard to requiring a feat (which is quite scarce for most rogue builds, usually sacrificing things like skill focus or LoH if they need anything for a PRC). You could also require investment in a somewhat useless skill over the first 10 levels in order to qualify for a kit from level 11-20 for example. There is plenty you could do to make a cost in order to have a rogue kit, but as I said, nothing has even been discussed for rogue kits and my thought would be they have to get in line behind other class kits.

It might help if provided with actual kit specifics like is sometimes posted for PRC's which could then be a starting point for more specific community discussion.

[Deathgrowl]

Although that may be true, the idea is pure rogue. A number of pure base classes do quite well. Rogue is not one of them.

Why is this such a necessity, though? Fighter is virtually never worth taking beyond level 12 either. Until recently, Swashbuckler wasn't really worth taking beyond 5 (or 7 in a few select cases), and it's still not really worth going pure.

Literally every single base class except druid has something to gain from a 3 or 4 level dip. Wizard26/archmage4 is better than wizard30. Favoured soul with paladin, blackguard, fighter, bard, rogue of four levels is better than favoured soul 30. Paladin with 4 levels of monk, rogue, fighter, etc...

Why should rogue be different in this? 3 levels of shadowdancer and you're set.

EDIT: Underlined the point I wanted to get across. It's really just that.

[aaron22]

i am feeling a R13/F8/GT5/BG4 would be a pretty thuggy build. epic dodge, expose weakness, 10d6 SA. will save would be a problem. good HP's with toughness epic tough. AB is decent. could have KD and divine shield too. cool little thuggy build. but then thats all in the RP.

chad has more knowledge on rogue builds, so im sure he could find even better ways to deliver the goods.

[Planehopper]

What is the issue we are trying to solve?

Viability of class purity? I think Deathgrowl made the case as to why that's less of an issue than maybe you're seeing it now.

Variety in rogue archetypes? I think rogue, of all classes, synergizes well with other classes to create what may be rogue-dipping builds that retain the rogue feel. Thug, conman, spy, etc... these can all be built pretty effectively with existing resources.

If the issue is just a desire for new content, I completely understand, but that's separate from a "need" to fill a gap, imo. Of course I could be completely missing the point.

[Mallore]

What is the issue we are trying to solve?

Viability of class purity? I think Deathgrowl made the case as to why that's less of an issue than maybe you're seeing it now.

Unfortunately I disagree with Deathgrowl perspective on the issue, though I think we are seeing it from different angles and different goals. In my view you do not see builds often go past rogue 3 as rogue is used as a dip class by others to advance into wanted prc's. I personally wonder whats wrong with more building options?

Variety in rogue archetypes? I think rogue, of all classes, synergizes well with other classes to create what may be rogue-dipping builds that retain the rogue feel. Thug, conman, spy, etc... these can all be built pretty effectively with existing resources.

If the issue is just a desire for new content, I completely understand, but that's separate from a "need" to fill a gap, imo. Of course I could be completely missing the point.

I never used the word Need. I made a suggestion and with a please. The goal being as stated at the start as.

"I think this might be a good way to refresh a vanilla class on the server, give some interesting rp windows and some fun ways to build. Most of all, this refreshes a classic work horse class with new interesting mechanics, enjoyable and do not over power the server but address a wide variety of wishes and wants from players across the server. Build what you like and enjoy!"

refresh and new content, why not, what was the last time rogue was looked at for fresh content?

If we did everything on need then lets stop building now. We didn't need Bladesinger, we dont need new spells, we didn't need to improve harpers or 20 other prcs. All we really need is the standard vanilla game, but we make more for fun.

Why is there such throw back against rogues on this server? It is the only untouched vanilla class here. It is also gimped on purpose here, with the reduction in effectiveness of traps and the fact Bosses are immune to a rogues crippling strike is just proof. People do not have to like the suggestions, hell is there even a Dev interested, I fear not.

In the end, if we have to base everything on Need, then lets stop now. I rather base on increasing fun, and options.

[Rasael]

Kits are intended as a mechanic by which we can have substitution levels. Where you exchange a regular level in a class for a special level in a substitution class / kit. But it counts as a level in the regular class. Unlike a PRC, where you do have to take a new (prestige) class.

That means that with a kit you can keep progressing in your base class' abilities. Among other things. Whereas with a PRC that's usually not the case, unless specifically stated.


Substitution classes are essentially the 3rd edition equivalent of kits.
So I called it kits - since everyone who plays Baldur's Gate I & II understands that. And it sounds better.


There doesn't have to be a trade-off like with the current Paladin kits you discussed.
But its not like we want to use kits to just give free goodies and start a power creep. If you have to give up on stuff by taking a kit then that factors in into how much that kit may / should benefit you.

Its a good idea to make Rogue kits. In my opinion at least.
I'd challenge you to layout a single kit in a new topic, and focus on that. See what other people think. How it might work. How to balance it. etc..

[aaron22]

Its a good idea to make Rogue kits. In my opinion at least.
I'd challenge you to layout a single kit in a new topic, and focus on that. See what other people think. How it might work. How to balance it. etc..

[Monnock777]

Hi!


The Idea is to do rogue kits. Kits however for rogue should kick in at Level 10 and go to level 20. So at Rogue Level 10 you can select your first kit and keep going. This will not increase power of all those builds and classes that use rogue currently as a dip to meet other prc requirements.

The Kits would be.

Conman (Confidence Man)
- Perhaps its 20th ability is a bonus to Bluff and Feint. a deadly fainter....
- This kit is the fast talker, the silver tongue, the wit and wiseful and liars of the world

Thug. (Made Man)
- Perhaps this kit would have a better AB or Fort... be more a Str Rogue?
- This kit is the muscle in a gang, a robber or highway man bandit. She is aggressive. Physical.

Spy. (Secert Agent)
- Perhaps bonuses or abilities for spying, this PRC might get a Rogue 20 Hips.
- Spy, could be fancy dress in a court, or hiding on a wall in a barn. They work for someone!

Thief. (cat burglar)
- Maybe abilities to enter places, evade enemies and classic thief skills.
- think catburglers, avoiding violence, a tomb raider or specialized pick pocket, an expert

Jack of All Trades. (Smuggler)
- Skill bonuses, increased synergy bonuses, opens a lot of skills they don't have currently?
- This is the classic Han Solo Smugglers, or the Card Shark, Even a nobleman.

The Crimelord (godfather)
- Gives bonuses to his party members, leadership feats.
- Money men, Bookies, Soprano's. Gang leaders or even street organizers.


If someone wanted to go pure rogue, to say rouge 30, well at level 20 they can select a second kit.

I think this might be a good way to refresh a vanilla class on the server, give some interesting rp windows and some fun ways to build. Most of all, this refreshes a classic work horse class with new interesting mechanics, enjoyable and do not over power the server but address a wide variety of wishes and wants from players across the server. Build what you like and enjoy!

You for got Politician. rogue make good diplomats/ council members.
Skill focus Sense motive, diplomacy, bluff, & intimidate