Some Rogue Feat Suggestions:

metaquad4 · Unread post by **metaquad4** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:50 pm

Changes:

Charge Arterial Strike to do damage per round that is not resisted by DR.

Change Invisible Blade's bleeding damage to not be resisted by DR.
(Plenty of mobs have DR, which make these two rather useless.)

Change Opportunist to give a +4 AB when attacking targets that are flat-footed (as well as attacks of opportunity).

Change Skill Mastery to give a +(Rouge Level/3) to Open Lock, Set Trap, Disable Device, Search, and Sleight of Hand checks/rolls in addition to its current effect.

Rouge 5 gives you a special form of Hide in Plain Sight. If you take any other class, this form of Hide in Plain Sight will cease to function. (As hide in plain sight is fairly essential for any sneak attacker in nwn2, this allows pure rouges to have it at an early stage. The trade off is that you cannot multiclass, so if you desire another form of HiPs, you must take a HiPs class to get it.)

New Feats:

I think there are a distinct lack of useful rogue bonus feats (the special feats they get at 10, 13, 16, 19, 24, and 28). So, I have suggested a few more that would definitely be worth taking in order to make the choice between feats a little more difficult. In addition to changing opportunist and skill mastery (as seen above). In addition, I suggest a couple other feats that reward pure rogues and try to give rogues more "rogue-y" things to do instead of just stabbing.

New Feat: Elegant Strike
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You can apply your DEX score to damage, as long as you are wielding a weapon that qualifies for weapon finesse. You must have at-least 2/3 Rouge Levels total, or this feat will no longer work. (Similar to monks and insightful strike)
Activation: Automatic

New Feat: Masterful Deception
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat. Blackguard 7 gets this feat for free.
You words are like poison to your enemies, filling their heads with lies and deceit. You roll a bluff check equal to 1d20+Rogue Level+1/2 Bluff against a DC of the enemy's HD+Will+1/2 Sense Motive. If the enemy fails, they are confused for 1 round/rogue level. At rouge 25, this impacts all enemies in a large area of effect. If an enemy succeeds, they are immune to any further attempts until they rest. This feat is a full round action and has a 12 second cooldown. This feat does not work on mindless targets.

If the character is blackguard, DC becomes 1d20+2*Blackguard Level+1/2 Bluff.
Activation: Selected

New Feat: Elemental Strike.
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You can apply a paste onto your weapon, which empowers it with elemental energy. This feat can be used 2/day, and it lasts 1 hour per rogue level. Each paste increases your damage by 1d4, and you can only apply 1 paste per weapon. When you activate this feat, you can choose which element (acid, fire, cold, electricity) you wish to apply to your weapon. At rogue level 20, this paste deals 1d6 damage. At rogue level 30, this paste deals 1d8 damage.
Activation: Selected

New Feat: Energy Strike.
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat. Requires elemental strike. Warrior of Darkness and Anointed Knight both get this feat for free at level 10.
This feat acts like elemental strike, but you can apply energy (Positive, Divine, Negative, or Magical) damage to your weapon instead. This feat can be used 2/day and lasts 2 minutes per rogue level.
Activation: Selected

New Feat: Jagged Strike
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat. Requires Arterial Strike.
You lose 3d6 sneak dice. Every time you sneak attack, you deal out 1 damage per remaining sneak dice for a number of rounds equal to half your DEX modifier. This damage cannot be resisted.
Activation: Mode

New Feat: Throat Slice
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You lose 1d6 sneak dice. Every time you sneak attack, the enemy must roll a fortitude save (DC=10+DEX Modifier+1/2 Rogue Levels). If the target fails, they are silenced for 3 seconds. If they were casting a spell and that spell was interrupted, they are silenced for 2 rounds. This can only trigger once per round.
Activation: Mode

New Feat: Hamstring
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You lose 1d6 sneak dice. Every time you sneak attack, the enemy must roll a fortitude save (DC=10+DEX Modifier+1/2 Rogue Levels). If the target fails, they are slowed for 3 rounds. If they fail a second save, they are paralyzed for 1 round.
Activation: Mode

New Feat: Sunder
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You lose 3d6 sneak dice. When you sneak attack, the enemy must roll a fortitude save (DC=10+DEX Modifier+1/2 Rogue Levels). If the target fails, their AC and Saves are reduced by 2.
Activation: Mode

New Feat: Masterful Trapper
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat. Hunter can take this feat as a general feat.
You cannot roll lower than a 10 when attempting to disable a device. Additionally, when you set a trap, you tinker with it and are able to make it set off twice (in effect, when you lay a trap you also lay a second one).

New Feat: Bomb Crafter
Given at rogue 10. Techsmith of Gond 10 can take this feat as a general feat and use their caster level in place of rogue levels.
You can craft throwable bombs, which increase in power the more rogue levels you have. A rogue can deliver sneak attacks with these bombs if thrown when the enemy is not engaged in combat. Each bomb requires a ranged touch attack and deals an additional side effect upon a failed save.
Activation: Selected

Hidden: show

New Feat: Craft Thieves Tools
Given at rogue level 18. Guild Thief gets this for free at level 5.
You can craft thieves tools. The quality of thieves tools you can craft is based on (rogue level/3+2). If you are rogue level 30, you can craft mastercrafted skeleton keys (+20 to open lock) instead. Each set requires 50+(Rogue Level*3) gold to craft.
Activation: Selected

If you are a guild thief, you craft these tools at a 75% discount and can craft 2 per batch instead of 1. Guild Thieves also get +10 to the quality of their thieves tools.
Activation: Selected

New Feat: Double Dipping
Given at rogue level 29.
When you encounter any chest, you can roll a search check with a DC based on the CR of the area you are in. If you succeed on this search check, you can loot a chest one more time before the cooldown sets in.
Activation: Automatic

Jepop · Unread post by **Jepop** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:22 pm

Mallore · Unread post by **Mallore** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:26 pm

Its neat to see more thougths and Ideas.

These are two real feats from Paper and Pen.

Dexterous Will [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, slippery mind class feature.
Benefit
Once per round, when targeted by an effect that requires a Will saving throw, you may make a Reflex save instead to avoid the effect (evasion is not applicable).

Dexterous Fortitude [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, slippery mind class feature.
Benefit
Once per round, when targeted by an effect that requires a Fortitude saving throw, you may make a Reflex save instead to avoid the effect (evasion is not applicable).

Not cheep and very hard to get on the feat starved toon but could be fantastic. if people wanted to tighten it up. requiring Hide MS of 25 is cool, or even a ref save of x?

rogues suffer the most from only being good at one save, and allot of the rogue flavor prcs also only focus on ref. something the game designers clearly notice and came up with these.

A mob can screw you over or a hasted enemy possible... so that makes this not OP.

In pvp, because that is where the tears come from, you will have to know your enemy,.. are they good at fort or will.. guess you gotta try a different spell.. well you'll still win with bigby =P

Marathados · Unread post by **Marathados** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:43 pm

Alright, as there seems to be quite the desire for some alternative rogue builds and the module is updating for me right now, how about the Nightsong Infiltrator (As it is easier not to quote the "Complete Adventurer Guide", here is the summary from Kaedrin´s PRC pack):

Nightsong Infiltrator

PRESTIGE CLASS: This class is not available at character creation and must be unlocked by meeting special requirements, listed below. This class has 10 levels.

An expert at breaking into "secure" areas, a nightsong infiltrator is the perfect thief and the perfect spy. Whether she is there to steal gold, information, jewels, or secrets, an infiltrator is trained to do her job quickly and efficiently. She practices extensively with locks and traps, focusing on doing her job under pressure and in unfavorable conditions.

Rogues most frequently and most easily become nightsong infiltrators. Bards, urban rangers, and intelligent fighters can make good members of the class as well. Rarer, but possible, are spellcasting nightsong infiltrators who use spells to get in and out of place. When working as part of a team, a nightsong infiltrator works best as the advance scout and point person, while the other team members take care of the threats that she is unable to deal with (guards, mostly).

Requirements:

Feats: Alertness, Evasion
Skills: Disable Device 10 Ranks, Open Lock 5 Ranks, Search 5 Ranks.

Class Features:

Hit Die: d6
Base Attack Bonus: Medium.
High Saves: Reflex.
Weapon Proficiencies: None.
Armor Proficiencies: None.
Skill Points: 8 + Int modifier.
Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft Alchemy, Craft Armor, Craft Trap, Craft Weapon, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, and Tumble.

Class Abilities:

Level 1: Teamwork Trap Sense +1, Trapfinding
Level 2: Skill Focus (Tumbling), Teamwork Infiltration +2
Level 3: Adrenaline Boost 1/day, Trackless Step (self)
Level 4: Teamwork Sneak Attack 1d6, Teamwork Trap Sense +2
Level 5: Defensive Roll, Adrenaline Boost 2/day
Level 6: Improved Evasion, Skill Focus (Disable Device), Skill Focus (Open Locks), Skill Focus (Search)
Level 7: Teamwork Trap Sense +3, Trackless Step (allies)
Level 8: Teamwork Infiltration +4, Teamwork Sneak Attack 2d6
Level 9: Adrenaline Boost 3/day
Level 10: Hide in plain sight, Teamwork Trap Sense +4

Teamwork Trap Sense +1: The nightsong infiltrator grants herself and her allies (within 30 feet) a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps. This ability improves to +2 at 4th level, +3 at 7th level, and +4 at 10th level.

Trapfinding: Nightsong infiltrators can now use the Disable Device skill to overcome traps with a DC of 20 or more as a Rogue.

Teamwork Infiltration +2: The nightsong infiltrator grants herself and her allies (within 30 feet) a +2 competence bonus the following skills: Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, and Tumble. This bonus improves to +4 at 8th level.

Adrenaline Boost: You can exhort your allies to discover a reservoir of energy they didn't think they had. Once per day, as a standard action, you can grant temporary hit points equal to your nightsong infiltrator level to all of your allies within 30 feet (but not to yourself). If the ally's current hit point total is no more than half his full normal hit points, the number of temporary hit points granted to that character is doubled. The temporary hit points last for up to 1 minute per nightsong infiltrator level. At 5th level you can use this ability twice per day and three times per day at 9th level.

Teamwork Sneak Attack: The nightsong infiltrator grants herself and her allies (within 30 feet) a 1d6 sneak attack bonus when flanking an opponent or any time the target would be denied its Dexterity bonus. This bonus increases to 2d6 at 8th level.

Trackless Step (allies): The nightsong infiltrator can grant the trackless step ability to her allies. This benefit lasts for 24 hours.

HauteCarl · Unread post by **HauteCarl** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:23 pm

+1
If any one of the following three things were implemented I would cry tears of joy.

New Feat: Elegant Strike
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You can apply your DEX score to damage, as long as you are wielding a weapon that qualifies for weapon finesse. You must have at-least 2/3 Rouge Levels total, or this feat will no longer work. (Similar to monks and insightful strike)
Activation: Automatic

New Feat: Masterful Deception
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat. Blackguard 7 gets this feat for free.
You words are like poison to your enemies, filling their heads with lies and deceit. You roll a bluff check equal to 1d20+Rogue Level+1/2 Bluff against a DC of the enemy's HD+Will+1/2 Sense Motive. If the enemy fails, they are confused for 1 round/rogue level. At rouge 25, this impacts all enemies in a large area of effect. If an enemy succeeds, they are immune to any further attempts until they rest. This feat is a full round action and has a 12 second cooldown. This feat does not work on mindless targets.
Activation: Selected

New Feat: Elemental Strike.
Can only be taken on a rogue bonus feat.
You can apply a paste onto your weapon, which empowers it with elemental energy. This feat can be used 2/day, and it lasts 1 hour per rogue level. Each paste increases your damage by 1d4, and you can only apply 1 paste per weapon. When you activate this feat, you can choose which element (acid, fire, cold, electricity) you wish to apply to your weapon. At rogue level 20, this paste deals 1d6 damage. At rogue level 30, this paste deals 1d8 damage.
Activation: Selected

Metro-Gnome · Unread post by **Metro-Gnome** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:22 pm

-1 from a long term sneak player that thinks rogues are pretty darn good already. Sorry.

metaquad4 · Unread post by **metaquad4** » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:32 pm

I dunno, I always found rouge 30 to be kinda crap!

The PRCs, on the other hand. . .those are good!

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:40 am

Hey all, just tested some content with a rogue and I got to say I think they are in a really good place right now, and will only be more fun when we are able to finalize the bombs dedude's been faithfully working on for several months.

You no longer need HiPS as HitS is a viable (if weaker) alternative. This opens up options to fully avoid Shadow Dancer and Assassin and either go Rogue 30, or R27/NWN3, or any other combination you want so long as you get R21 you get instantly activated HitS. HitS won't work out in the open, which includes trying to use it around tree's and wagons and such. However, it will work near cliffs, hills, rocks, walls, etc. So in a dungeon, especially with narrow corridors or in a city HitS can be as good as HiPS, but out in the open it loses value. Note that even if you only go to Rogue 18 or 19 (for the extra feat) the timer on HitS is only 0.5 seconds, which is not that big of a deal, especially if you go for epic dodge. Thus you could go R18/x12 and still be fine with appropriate planning.

Long story short, based on actual testing HitS makes a Rogue w/out SD/Assassin viable in PvE, but requires taking time to know your surroundings. In some areas, especially wilderness you need to get creative and spend some time learning what parts of the environment allow HitS to work and which do not. However, once you do it is a lot of fun to use strategy and advance planning to hit and run, using various parts of the environment to advantage. Using one of your open feats for Blinding Strike is a great way to have another alternative to land sneak attacks. Finally, when bombs get released, get ready because those are LOADS of fun to use. I won't give specifics as I don't want to steal dedude's thunder (he has worked really hard on them and dealt with constant requests to make changes.)

In any case, for those who have voiced concerns about HiPS being required for sneak attack builds, I highly recommend looking further in to high level rogue making use of HitS. It is NOT as powerful as HiPS (and is not supposed to be!) However, it can still be used to great success and in my opinion makes PvE a lot of fun since you have to plan your attacks and escape routes in advance. Things become really enjoyable when a new mob spawns and throws a wrench in your plans!

have fun out there all you sneaky sneaks!

Marathados · Unread post by **Marathados** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:29 am

Sounds good, although more prc options are never a bad thing!

One of the greatest strength of D&D is that it allows a great variety of builds.
And most of the Kaedrin Prcs not included yet, would be serving variety and different playstyles quite nicely.
This is not limited to rogues only of course (And no, do not think something like RDD has to be included).

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:34 am

I'm by no means stating that more content rogue and otherwise should/will not be introduced. I was just calling out that where it stands now, the improvements to HitS have made a non HiPS rogue far more viable without making HiPS redundant or no longer necessary. HiPS is without a doubt the better ability, but at least in SOME circumstances HitS is a viable alternative. Dagesh was kind enough to send me the scripts so I will update forums later today, but essentially from 6-10 HitS requires 2 seconds frozen in order to activate. From 11-15 it's 1.5 seconds, 16-20 it's 1 second and at 21 it becomes instant. If enemies are nearby there is a reflex save to see if HitS still can work or not which allows a bit more benefit then the old model where no enemies could be nearby.

In any case, I am not going to comment on any suggestions right now, but I felt it was appropriate to call out the new content introduced, and being worked on specific to rogues.

Sun Wukong · Unread post by **Sun Wukong** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:37 am

metaquad4 wrote:Charge Arterial Strike to do damage per round that is not resisted by DR.

Bleeding damage should not be hindered by damage resistance in my opinion, unless how is teh Arterial Strike bleeding damage counted? Are you doing 2, 2, 2, etc... Or will the bleeding damage actually increase so that it can eventually overcome damage reduction?

metaquad4 wrote:Change Invisible Blade's bleeding damage to not be resisted by DR.
(Plenty of mobs have DR, which make these two rather useless.)

That would mean rolling back on an official patch, because in unpatched NWN2 that was how it worked, then some patch came along and bleeding damage no longer went through DR. Made some feinting Fighter/Rogue/Invisible builds rather redundant.

metaquad4 wrote:Change Opportunist to give a +4 AB when attacking targets that are flat-footed (as well as attacks of opportunity).

As it stands there is no reason to take Opportunist. But I am not so sure about the +4 AB when popping out of stealth. I am under impression that popping out of stealth is already enough to turn medium bab accurate enough to land your sneak attacks from your first attack flurry. I could be wrong on this, so do correct if needed.

Now... as for buildwise that +4 AB is basically the same as 8 points in dexterity. A dedicated sneaker build in the past was able to make do with the +2 sneak equipment, and now it is possible to acquire even better equipment outside of DM events. Therefore, I would be inclined to lower a sneak character dexterity just so that I could increase the intelligence and potentially Death Attack DC, alongside with base damage due to Combat Insight and Insightful Strike.

metaquad4 wrote:Change Skill Mastery to give a +(Rouge Level/3) to Open Lock, Set Trap, Disable Device, Search, and Sleight of Hand checks/rolls in addition to its current effect.

Yeah, currently not being able to roll less than 5 in those above skill doesn't really make any difference. This would give a 'Rogue 30 character' +10 in the above skills, which in theory could let them spent skillpoints elsewhere - but rogues already gain a boat load of skill points... and tend to have moderately high intelligence scores anyhow. Thus it only makes a rogue better at being rogue.

metaquad4 wrote:Rouge 5 gives you a special form of Hide in Plain Sight. If you take any other class, this form of Hide in Plain Sight will cease to function. (As hide in plain sight is fairly essential for any sneak attacker in nwn2, this allows pure rouges to have it at an early stage. The trade off is that you cannot multiclass, so if you desire another form of HiPs, you must take a HiPs class to get it.)

In a way anyone who goes for shadowdancer as their first PRC will not mind it that much, but whoever goes for assassin actually might as they would gain ability to Hide in Plain Sight at Rogue 5, and lose it for the next 8 levels...

Thus perhaps Hide in Plain Sight should be given among the other potential rogue bonus feats at levels 10, 13, 16, and 19. From a point of view shadowdancer and assassin would still grant access to earlier HiPS, and although the minimum 10 levels Rogue would not require skill or feat requirements, you still have to either avoid or endure the multiclassing experience penalty that comes with it.

thebeasttt · Unread post by **thebeasttt** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:16 pm

Yeah I'm pretty new to rogue and was shocked how few of the feats are actually useful.

metaquad4 · Unread post by **metaquad4** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:51 pm

Adding HiPs as a bonus feat is good. But, imo, "must have" feats kinda suck.

Perhaps we could give the rouge hips as a bonus feat, give rouges free hips at 12 that requires them by at least 3/4 rouge levels for it to function, and give rouges crippling strike (another must have) for free at level 25 rouge.

Perhaps expose weakness could be given free as a treat for going rouge 30. (I'd consider it a must have on this server)

That way, we could have two camps. One, of people who multiclass and take the feats as rouge bonus feats. The second, of people who go pure(r) rouge and get them for free, thus allowing them to take other feats instead.

HiPs, crippling strike (for epic precision), and expose weakness really are the only two "must haves" atm, even with my suggestion. Since, rouges can't really function without them.

Well, they can function. But so can a fighter who is heavily encumbered 24/7. And who would want to play the latter?

chad878262 · Unread post by **chad878262** » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:35 am

We will not be adding HiPS as an available Rogue bonus feat. Granting them Hide in the Shadows for free and then improving it as they level was the QC decision to move forward with specifically because we collectively decided we did not want to give them HiPS either for free or as a bonus feat option. Frankly HitS is a far more faithful implementation of how Hide in Plain Sight works in PnP, where you must be within 10 feet of a shadow. HiPS is not supposed to be the stealth anytime, anywhere button that it is in this game, but there are no plans to change it right now. There are also no plans to further expand it though.

Sun Wukong · Unread post by **Sun Wukong** » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:25 am

chad878262 wrote:HiPS is not supposed to be the stealth anytime, anywhere button that it is in this game, but there are no plans to change it right now.

Right, it seems "QC" is back to being filled with a majority that has never read a single PnP source book, or even played a game of it at an actual table.

When it comes to HiPS in PnP, it is actually way harder to come up with scenarios where it is impossible to use this ability to hide in plain sight. After all, the feat is called Hide in Plain Sight... In fact you do not even need the ability itself, just a little bit of concealment from any source will do and it is your Hide skill against your opponent's Spot skill.

Therefore, the problem in NWN2 is that you cannot just 'randomly' attack the square where someone just vanished before your eyes. You know, try your luck against that 50% concealment, etc. in case your Spot skill fails against their Hide skill.

So please, if you just could stop making these nonsensical, unfactual, entirely uninformed claims about HiPS being 'limited' in PnP, it would look good on you. Because if you do not, well, just go to Youtube and search for 'flat-earth...'

Also: you could just say:

'Hide in Plain Sight' is a far more powerful ability in NWN2 than it is in PnP, and therefore we are increasingly careful of providing new ways to acquire it.

Also, I have a question about this new 'HitS' ability, Hide in the Shadows, is my rogue going to be visible for the 4 seconds of immobility, or is my rogue going to become invisible and also immobile for 4 seconds? I am just trying to determine how much movement speed increases I need to stack to make use of it. (Not that you can get more than the Dash feat without multiclassing.)

Some Rogue Feat Suggestions:

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