Shadowdancer Ideas

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metaquad4
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Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by metaquad4 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:25 am

Shadowdancer, beyond a dip into it, isn't very useful at all. I know we should get all our base classes in order before we talk about making not useful PRCs worthwhile, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing it.

Currently, shadowdancer is used as a dip to allow none sneak attackers to HiPs. I think this functionality should be kept, but other functions could be added for later levels:

1) Give Shadowdancer high BAB.

2) At every even shadowdancer level (2, 4, 6, 8, and 10) give +1, +1, +2, +2, and +4 hide and move silent respectively. This would total at 10 hide/ms if you took 10 shadowdancer, but lesser amounts if you just dip.

3) At shadowdancer 5, give shadowdancers shadow door 3/day as a spell like ability with their characer level equal to their caster level.

4) At shadowdancer 7, give shadowdancers dimensional door 3/day as a spell like ability.

5) At shadowdancer 9, give shadowdancers "shadow walk" and "mark rune", each 2/day with their character level equal to their caster level.

6) At shadowdancer 10, give shadowdancers the ability to summon a shadow clone of a touched target (or themselves) 1/day. This clone would last 1 minute/shadowdancer level and would have an additional 50% concealment and immunity to negative energy damage.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by NegInfinity » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:15 am

metaquad4 wrote:Shadowdancer, beyond a dip into it, isn't very useful at all. I know we should get all our base classes in order before we talk about making not useful PRCs worthwhile, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing it.

Currently, shadowdancer is used as a dip to allow none sneak attackers to HiPs. I think this functionality should be kept, but other functions could be added for later levels:

1) Give Shadowdancer high BAB.

2) At every even shadowdancer level (2, 4, 6, 8, and 10) give +1, +1, +2, +2, and +4 hide and move silent respectively. This would total at 10 hide/ms if you took 10 shadowdancer, but lesser amounts if you just dip.

3) At shadowdancer 5, give shadowdancers shadow door 3/day as a spell like ability with their characer level equal to their caster level.

4) At shadowdancer 7, give shadowdancers dimensional door 3/day as a spell like ability.

5) At shadowdancer 9, give shadowdancers "shadow walk" and "mark rune", each 2/day with their character level equal to their caster level.

6) At shadowdancer 10, give shadowdancers the ability to summon a shadow clone of a touched target (or themselves) 1/day. This clone would last 1 minute/shadowdancer level and would have an additional 50% concealment and immunity to negative energy damage.
I think high BAB does not fit the idea of the class. This class is a sort of a trickster/prankster. It is not someone who fights all the time.

I think that providing Hide/MS bonus by any means is a bad idea, because sneak skill on bgtscc is already ridiculous. By BGTSCC strandards 68..70 Hide/MS is achievable and is LOW.

I think a more interesting idea would be to give shadowdancer more shadowy summoning/illusory abilities or modify summon shadow ability to act according to dnd book. In the original class, shadowdancer could summon multiple shadows, up to 3 at level 9, and each third level added +2 hd to the shadow. It is also implied that the shadow is something akin to a familiar or animal companion because having it killed resulted in xp loss on a failed save. Original class also had ability to create illusions (using "still image"). So I think it could be a decent idea to give them something akin to programmed image ability. If somoene REALLY wants bonuses to Hide/MS it would be better implemented like bonuses granted to whirling dervish (which allow to pick skill focus feat on level up), except there should be less of them.

It is also worth remembering that shadowdancer provides defensive roll, evasion, meaning... expose weakness + epic dodge. Those are not weak abilities.

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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:43 am

Shadowdancers do not need any changes except porting their Summon Shadow ability over to the new summoning system (akin to Negative Plane Avatar for clerics). They already get Shadow Jump at level 10 on a 5 minute cooldown. They do not need any other bonuses or abilities.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by metaquad4 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:00 am

Another option (if we are unwilling or unable to add new abilties) is boosting the current ones:

Boost shadow daze's DC to 15+SD Level+DEX and give them multiple uses (3, like Shadow Evade) per day.

Boost Shadow Evade's duration to 1 minute per shadowdancer level rather than 1 round per.

Reduce Shadow Jump's cooldown to 2 minutes OR allow Shadow Jump to target runes and teleport the player to other zones.

Overhaul Summon Shadow:
At level 3 shadowdancer, it summons two shadows.
At level 5 shadowdancer, it summons a greater shadow and a shadow.
At level 8 shadowdancer, it summons a large shadow elemental and a greater shadow.
At level 10 shadowdancer, it summons an elder shadow elemental and a large shadow elemental.

Make the ability lasts 2 minutes/shadowdancer level. It stays as a 1/day ability.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:15 am

Shadow Jump in our server's incarnation of that ability is already very generous compared to PnP where it is a maximum of 40ft/day (exponentially doubling every 2 levels after 4th to a maximum jump length of 320 ft at 10th level). It is not a teleport.

I should like to see Shadow Daze on a cooldown so it might see more use (2 min cooldown perhaps?), sorta like what was done with Divine Champion Divine Wrath.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by metaquad4 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:31 am

Constantly comparing the server to PnP isn't going to help progress at all. This is not PnP, this is nwn2, on a persistent world server based on the BG game series' world (and expanding outwards!). We can use PnP for certain lore standards (where it is available, as D&D 3.5's lore was often vague and meant to be customized to fit what the user desired), but using a game set in a totally different medium for mechanical standards is silly at best.

Things can (and should) be changed to better fit the medium, rather than restricting this game to something that can never be a video game (and never should be).

And that is what happens when someone says "compared to PnP" when talking about an entirely different medium.

---------------------------------------

That said, one of my two suggestions for Shadow Jump was simply reducing its cooldown (as the cooldowns for teleports is now a thing of the past). This one doesn't cost gold, so it can have a small cooldown to compensate.

Shadow Daze on cooldown would be interesting as well, yeah.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by NegInfinity » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:28 pm

metaquad4 wrote:Constantly comparing the server to PnP isn't going to help progress at all. This is not PnP, this is nwn2, on a persistent world server based on the BG game series' world (and expanding outwards!). We can use PnP for certain lore standards (where it is available, as D&D 3.5's lore was often vague and meant to be customized to fit what the user desired), but using a game set in a totally different medium for mechanical standards is silly at best.

Things can (and should) be changed to better fit the medium, rather than restricting this game to something that can never be a video game (and never should be).

And that is what happens when someone says "compared to PnP" when talking about an entirely different medium.

---------------------------------------

That said, one of my two suggestions for Shadow Jump was simply reducing its cooldown (as the cooldowns for teleports is now a thing of the past). This one doesn't cost gold, so it can have a small cooldown to compensate.

Shadow Daze on cooldown would be interesting as well, yeah.
I think it is a very good idea to compare server with pnp, in order to preserve the spirit of the original game. Concentrating on mechanics only can easily lead to mechanical min-maxingin and asking for more powerful abilities for mechanical advantage, regardless of whether those abilities make sense or not. "We should adapt to medium" on occasion leads to titles such sword coast legends, so this is not a good path to follow.

More shadow summoning abilities could be fun. Making summon shadow ability work the same way as pnp (where you can summon multiple shadows in turns) could be fun as well. Adding some illusory abilities to compensate for missing Shadow Illusion could be great. Boosting BAB, adding hide/ms bonuses and stuff like that - this breaks the spirit of original class, grants mechanical advantage only, and has no basis in original idea of the class.

At least that's the way I see it. I do have shadowdancers on my roster.

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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by Mallore » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:47 pm

In my view, the best way to improve Shadow Dancer is to just get rid of the blank levels and make it a 7 or 6 level PRC. This might make the levels past level 3 (which is all basically most people do) more interesting.

Further making the Shadow Summon more interesting would be great, perhaps moving it to a different progression. Personally I would like to be able to name my shadow as in PnP its rather permanent and is much more akin to a Druids Pet. It can also take orders.. and do things for you, so perhaps controls like a familiar would be interesting.


Tsidkenu wrote:Shadow Jump in our server's incarnation of that ability is already very generous compared to PnP where it is a maximum of 40ft/day (exponentially doubling every 2 levels after 4th to a maximum jump length of 320 ft at 10th level). It is not a teleport.

I should like to see Shadow Daze on a cooldown so it might see more use (2 min cooldown perhaps?), sorta like what was done with Divine Champion Divine Wrath.

I do not agree our server version is generous compared to Paper and Pen, in my view. For example Shadow Jump can be used to through and under doors, as long as its a sliver of an opening the Shadow dancer can appear through the other side with shadow jump. Shadow jump does ignore obsticals as long as the jumper knows theirs a shadow over there.

Further with the proper feats, a character can Shadow Jump, attack, Shadow jump again. Attack and Shadow Jump, Or shadow jump and attack. Further Shadow jump can be used for some rather impressive tricks.

Right now our Shadow Jump does not Ignore line of sight. It really is just a strait line clicker.

It would be best to shrink its duration to 2 minutes so that it can at least get some PVE use in jumping behind mobs while your friends clog the tunnel in-front of you. with such a cd it can not be exploited either in my view.

I havent really gotten Shadow Daze to work on anything which wasnt just easier to Hips then SA to deal with, as anything stronger just makes the save.
Last edited by Mallore on Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by Deathgrowl » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:52 pm

Improving the shadowdancer's shadow to be on par with the palemaster's progression of summons (or other summon PRCs) would be a good start. It is currently very weak in comparison, especially as full 10 levels of shadowdancer doesn't lend itself very well to builds that can give the summon any buffs the same way as palemaster, thaumaturge or techsmith does.

It would also help if the Shadow Daze ability wasn't subject to spell resistance. It's just a relatively low DC, 5 round daze 1/day. And with a maximum of 10 "CL" behind it, it's virtually useless in the levels where it should start mattering.

Other than that, I think shadowdancer is fine.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by cosmic ray » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:00 pm

I love the idea of improving this class, but I'd rather you guys work on improving existing abilities before going around adding more new stuff. BGtSCC has added tons of new content, picked several classes apart, changed spells - it can feel mind-boggling at times. So to reiterate, please improve this class, but could you work on what already exists before adding more to the soup? :)
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by metaquad4 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:03 am

True. Make sure none of the current abilities are worthless before adding more. I agree.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by Nachti » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:49 pm

True. Make sure none of the current abilities are worthless before adding more. I agree.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by Mallore » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:29 pm

A pair of ideas'

Can the Shadow Dancer Abilities be used while in stealth... Such as Shadow Daze and the Defense buff all knock you out of stealth. So you cant really use these abilities to buff yourself or to attack.

Second.

Can Shadow Dancer be given Spellcraft? This sounds like a lot but it really isnt. All the caster dips already have spell craft access for their use and save boosts. What this will do is allow the "roguish" types who dip or take the class to full.

the non caster arctypes that take this class historically suffer in spell saves. the spell craft bonus would allow for the saves on these characters to improve slightly. it is not uncommon for a 10sd to have saves like 11/30/11. Even with hell store items, those fort and will saves on a 19 or 20 will still fail!. so with spellcraft and if the player wants to put the points.... they might actually save once in a blue moon agaisnt something. it could be a neat thing.

why spell craft?

well shadow dancers have an inante magical knowledge and connection to shadow magic, through getting to close to it.... how are they doing this? well spellcraft seams fitting.
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by playerr2 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:01 am

I vote for improving this class (my absolute favourite) anytime.

SHadow Jump really was kind of disppointing when i got it, because it requires line of sight and has a huge cooldown and is practically useless in combat. But nice RP Effect nevertheless.

THere are two feats for shadowjump while one doesn't really work. My suggestion is keep them and improve them. Keep the shadowjump where you can jump in your line of sight. But for the other one: the "mark shadow jump" could function as some kind of escape button.
The dancer marks the shadow at the begin of an area and can from then on, jump to that shadow, from any place in the same area. (that one should not affect the line-of-sight-jump)

CD Period is pretty long for something that is decribed as dancing..
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Re: Shadowdancer Ideas

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:42 am

As someone whose most notorious character has 10 shadowdancer levels, I'd say it isn't any weak at all! Shadowdancer focuses on survivability, and does so greatly. Shadowdancer 10 is much more attractive than something like, I don't know, Blackguard 10.

1) Shadow jump — insanely cool ability both mechanically and RP wise.
2) Lots of free rogue feats, Shadowdancer 10 is the only class except rogue that gives access to Improved evasion (and thus Epic dodge)
3) 10th level shadow is a powerful summon that is extremely useful if you manage to get it before epics
4) Shadow evade is not to be underestimated as well — +4 AC that stacks with everything, I really had at least one PvP situation where it saved me.

I'd also add that I had 10 shadowdancer on a sneak-attack based character (meaning I lost lots of sneak dices, but it still was worth it, trust me), mixing SD 10 into some caster build could be even more epic (like AoS did). Interesting enough, I have seen few other SD 10 players except myself, so it's not that unpopular. People dip into shadowdancer not because it's weak beyond 3. They do it because they want nothing from it except their precious hips.

p.s. The only thing that REALLY needs to be changed here is making Shadow Daze bypass SR.
p.p.s. I know I'm kinda necroposting here, I just saw this thread bumped and mindlessly responded.
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