Thaumaturge or Pale Master...?

[Bunnysmack]

Torn between these two classes for my last PRC in my wiz build. The final build will either be:

-Wiz 6/BM 9/ASoC 10/Thaum 5 or

- wiz 6/BM 4/ASoC 10/PM 10

The wiz is a dedicated spell caster with no feats or training in martial abilities. Originally set out to have the above build with one less level of wiz and 6 levels of Archmage. That changed when I realized that the three high cost bonus spell levels of AM are likely going to be FAR less effective than a PRC that provides two or more simultaneous minions.

PM gives a weaker bonus summon and deals with more RP flak (the character on the other hand doesn't care about necromancy stigma), but gives some very handy bonus AC and immunities, plus I already have Spell Focus Necromancy and Favored School Necromancy (for when I was building towards archmage). With greater spell focus necro, and epic spell focus, I could have a pretty nasty vampire cohort AND have really high DCs on necro spells. Would also need to take Practiced Spell caster to make up for some pale master levels though.

As for the thaum route, the rediculously high bonuses to planar and conjure summons makes for superior minions, allows for more levels of BM, and let's me power focus on spell focus feats that will aid in making incredibly burly gate summons.

I'm completely on the fence about which would serve me better or be more fun, but in a handful of levels I should start training in one of these two areas. Any idea on which might serve a non-weapon using wiz better?

P.S. I have never actually tried out either of these PRCs personally, and the JEGS training mordule never seems to load correctly on my computer.

[Deathgrowl]

PM gives a weaker bonus summon

Weaker? It's currently almost as good as the druid's companion! It's super OP! If Thaumaturge has better, that is really worrying!

[dedude]

PM is just about the strongest PRC we have, and the undead cohort is absolutely the strongest wizard companion. Downside is a rotten arm.

[Moltrazahn]

The arm is FINE. PM have access to the disguise skill, and bluff, so no worries ^^

[Hawke]

Why choose?

Take both.

Now your undead summons has +8 str and +8 con after you buff it. How can that be bad?

[chad878262]

ASoC is really a PRC designed mostly for "blasters" while PM and Thaumaturge are both summoners and Blood Magus is a DC Caster. Thus Hawke's advice is quite sound. I would pick either Blood Magus OR ASoC and take BOTH PaleMaster and Thaumaturge. With Blood Magus you can get your CL to 32 (just make sure no one see's you! ) while ASoC can give you improved metamagic and lots of metamagics. So would you rather summon your OP Undead cohort and blast stuff with damage spells or would you rather lay down the save or die type of spells? Decide that and you'll have your build.

W5/PM10/T5/BM10 or W5/PM10/T5/AS10. (note that BM requires only 1 feat [toughness], while Arcane Scholar requires 3 [Empower, SF: Concentration and SF: Spellcraft]) Making Blood Magus far less costly which allows you to pick up some feats to further empower your summoning or your DC's.

If you want to focus on summoning with DC's secondary make sure to take a look at the 'Beckon the Frozen' feat, which requires Augment Summoning and Spellfocus: Conjuration. You'll already have spellfocus as a Thaumaturge prerequisite.

[metaquad4]

PM gives a weaker bonus summon

Weaker? It's currently almost as good as the druid's companion! It's super OP! If Thaumaturge has better, that is really worrying!

Wat. We must have different palemaster classes! Even on my necromancer character (though, it doesn't benefit from epic spell focus: necromancer), its kinda pathetic. It would be good with a rapier, since it does get weapon focus/improved crit feats for rapier (as well as swashbuckler's -CON and -STR on crit). It it had a rapier, it would be a total boss. With its fists, its kinda crap.

If its going to use fists, it should have fist/natural attack feats (improved critical/greater flurry/multiattack) and not rapier feats. Even then, rapier would be better. And even if it had a rapier, its real strength comes from its ability score damage. Without that utility (against things immune to ability score damage) its just a weaker direct damage attacker (and there are better direct damage attackers). That utility will work against many mobs on the server, but not against most bosses and the undead enemies.

Speaking of, it seems none of palemaster's spell like feats except animate dead benefit from ESF: Necromancer. There don't seem to be any HD increases.

[Bunnysmack]

Might have to wait till the next full RCR event to follow this advice because I already took three levels of ASoC. Was suckered in by the attraction of improved quickened spell, free metamagic feats, and the lure if BM scarification/blood component. Sadly, can no longer take both Thaum and PM because I only have one allowed class remaining to me.

[dedude]

The snowflakiness is strong on this server...

[chad878262]

The summon should not be as good (better) than a level ~21 Swashbuckler that you then buff up with your wizard to unholy godhood. It is an extremely powerful tank which can be a pretty strong offensive attacker too when buffed with a dozen wizard spells, augment summoning, beckon the frozen, and ESF: Necromancy. Besides the fact that as a wizard you still have spells to either blast or cause problems for enemies. summon gets mobbed? You have a ton of spells to help him out:

(Mass) Curse of Impending Blades
(Mass) Contagion
Ray of Enfeeblement
Fear
Finger of Death
Horrid Wilting
Symbol of Pain
Wail of the Banshee
Vampiric Feast

And that is just the Necromancy spells! You could also throw out Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill with impunity which your undead cohort is immune to, just like Evard's black tentacles and have decent DC since you have SF: Conjuration too (if you have Thaumaturge).

There are a ton of other possibilities to play with, but when compared to any other summon (aside from Druid companion) PaleMaster cohort is just plain better. Giving it a weapon has been brought up in the past and would make it ridiculously OP, better than many level 30 non-caster PC's when fully buffed by the Wizard.

OP: depending on your level RCR is still relatively painless until you reach epic levels. Up to level 10 RCR is always free and after that it is a sliding scale, so you won't lose 50% until you hit level 20 character. If you are level 13 or something you might go back to 11, maybe even 12 (or close) so it should not necessarily deter you if it is what you want to play. As to snow-flakiness, mechanics are a part of the game and if you enjoy the current mechanics, then keep with it. However, if you want something in particular that your current build is not delivering then you should not feel shamed by changing the build to something you find more enjoyable. This server is as much about mechanics as it is about Role Play and at least for me, I need both to be aligned for a given character or it is no fun.

[Bunnysmack]

I'm on the fence :-/...Mostly, I want a happy middle ground of strong DCs and decent things to tank for me so the level progression isn't a total pain.

So, how gimped will Wiz6/BM4/ASoC 10/PM10 be compared to a build with more BM and Thaum? ASoC looks fun, but I can totally see how thaum could easily take it's place and make for a better DC caster while also being a far better summoner.

[chad878262]

Wizards do not do well when they try to go middle ground. If you want to be a blaster, you are best served with AS and Frost Mage can help as well, but isn't necessary. If you want to be a DC caster you are best served aiming for at least ~38 DC for your level 9 spells. It should be higher, but that is a serviceable DC...Any lower and you really aren't a DC caster any more. Remember that any time something saves that spell slot is wasted, so you really want to make sure enemies do not save when your a DC focused caster. Blasters don't care as much about saves (though failed saves allow more damage) and really benefit from the improved Empower/Maximize/Quicken feats from ASoC. In the case of summoning, you can still do one or the other reasonably well while being a summoner, but you won't be able to even be middle ground at both since you are essentially splitting your feats and spell slots between buffs for your summon, buffs for you, blast spells and DC spells. Your DC spells won't work as often so would likely be better off just blasting, making Blood Magus somewhat of a waste (though your scars will still be useful.)

Edit for clarification: This is not to say you cannot play your current build. It is a CL30 caster (once reaching max level) and will do fine survivability wise. You just can't have expectations to be a good DC Caster when you don't focus on being one.

[Bunnysmack]

Blasting is actually not high on my list. I find that straight damage spells are nice to use on occasion, but relying on them very much leaves you out of spells in a hurry. Also I have a DsM warlock, so I kinda already have a blasting focused toon.

So...what combo of classes makes for the best DC caster? Someone threw around dropping the ASoC and picking up more levels of BM with 5 levels of thaum...is that also aiming for too much of a middle ground? It sounds fun, effective, and on the surface it doesn't seem to sacrifice optimally hitting super high DCs ((can still power buy ESFN and get all the spell boosters from BM under that set up)). Is Archmage needed for an optimized DC caster? As far as I'm aware, bonus caster levels don't factor into the DC equation of [level of spell+int modifier+feats], but I'm still learning the ropes on the finer points of casting mechanics.

Edit: Although it is the Golden child of DC based caster PRCs, I'm not enthusiastic about taking Red Wizard of That as an option...I already have enough trouble deciding on one prohibited school, let alone two of them, and I'd rather not rely on a build that has a class which requires special permission from the DM team.

[chad878262]

Required feats for BM, PM and Thaumaturge: Toughness (BM), SF: Conjuration (T) and Greater SF: Conjuration. Assuming non-human you have 4 feats left. Spellcasting Prodigy (+1 DC's), SF: Necromancy (+1 DC), GSF: Necromancy (+1 DC), Extend Spell (for buffs) or Quicken Spell (For Oh #@#$ button). EDIT: PSC can also be grabbed with the W5 feat...

Epic feats (5): Great INT x3, ESF: Necromancy and Epic Vampiric Feast.

INT (assuming +2 INT race) 20 + 7 (stat increase) + 3 (Great INT) = 30 (34 with Fox Cunning or +4 headband from Red Wizard NPC merchant).

DC calc (for Necromancy): 10 + 1 (Prodigy) + 12 (INT) + 4 (CL32 w/ blood magic) + 3 (ESF: Necro) = 30 + Spell level (DC 39 Wail of the Banshee).

Note that ESF Necromancy also makes your Undead summon stronger.

While there are many ways to get your DC over 40, this should be serviceable with a strong summon.

[V'rass]

The undead arm is easy to deal with, just hide it under clothing like any sane person would if they had one.