Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

So I wanna roll up a barb, and I have a few (a lot of ) questions.

I wanna stay as a human and use a greataxe for RP. Thinking stats of 18/10/16/12/8/8 unless those are really dumb and bad. I'm planning on using regular full plate so a final dex of 12 is fine. What kind of class splits are solid? I hear "20 barb/10 anything else" is good. Being a divine champion of Tempus would be pretty cool I also hear I want 5 FB for enhanced power attack, and mixing in some fighter levels helps with being starved for feats, so something like 20-21 barb, 5-6 fb, 4 ftr. I've heard from experienced builders that I'd want between 6 to 12 levels of fighter, but then I wouldn't hit barb 20 which has some nice goodies. How well do FB and barb synergize, or is FB done just to get toughness+enhanced power attack? Rage and frenzy are separate and don't stack, right?

What do you guys think about standard rage vs whirlwind rage? I'm reading a lot of conflicting info about which is better.

As a general philosophy, do I want to build to just max damage, or do I want to build for survivability so that I'm not a glass cannon? E.g. is it dumb to take the damage resistance feats and the fast regen feats? I'm also not sure what feats I really need and want... I think I want luck of heroes, icetroll berserker, improved knockdown, and steadfast determination, not really sure what else. One school of thought seems to be that rage is your everything, and you need all the extra rage/extend rage/rage boosting feats as possible. But that won't leave a lot of room for other extras.

Finally, what skills are must-have? I think I want heal and tumble, I hear I want UMD too. Spellcraft? Survival (is it even useful for anything besides RP?) Spot? Listen?

I know this is pretty vague, just wondering how to flesh out this concept. Will post more details as it solidifies. Appreciate any tips!! Loving the server so far.

What kind of class splits are solid? I hear "20 barb/10 anything else" is good.

Yes.

I also hear I want 5 FB for enhanced power attack, and mixing in some fighter levels helps with being starved for feats, so something like 20-21 barb, 5-6 fb, 4 ftr. I've heard from experienced builders that I'd want between 6 to 12 levels of fighter, but then I wouldn't hit barb 20 which has some nice goodies. How well do FB and barb synergize, or is FB done just to get toughness+enhanced power attack? Rage and frenzy are separate and don't stack, right?

FB is usually taken for Enhanced power attack, rage and frenzy do stack ... but there is a +12 STR cap overall so in the end there is not much to stack. The bonus attack from Frenzy is still very good though. Going the FB route costs 2 useless feats and since you're going IPA you want high AB, which means lots of STR and less room for defensive feats.

What do you guys think about standard rage vs whirlwind rage? I'm reading a lot of conflicting info about which is better.

Both are valid choices in general but for a 2-hander I would go with Whirlwind Frenzy because that AC bump is important, it truely depends on your AC and you need 45+ (everything taken into account) in the end. If your build and gear choices allow for that kind of AC with standard rage then standard likely is the best pick for you.

As a general philosophy, do I want to build to just max damage, or do I want to build for survivability so that I'm not a glass cannon? E.g. is it dumb to take the damage resistance feats and the fast regen feats? I'm also not sure what feats I really need and want... I think I want luck of heroes, icetroll berserker, improved knockdown, and steadfast determination, not really sure what else. One school of thought seems to be that rage is your everything, and you need all the extra rage/extend rage/rage boosting feats as possible. But that won't leave a lot of room for other extras.

Barbarian is powerful enough that you can choose any path you've listed and be fine now, going for EDR or fast regen feats is totally playable. Another example : I'm playing a similar concept, 2-hander Barb 26 / Cleric 4 of Tempus with epic rage and EDM in mind (not there yet) and it's doing great all around.

I sit in the all extend rage feats camp, it sucks when your barbarian is out of rages, you can however build to not be completely rage-reliant, your choice.

Picking human race you have 8 feats pre-epic + 1 feat from Barbarian 10, LoH, Ice troll, IKD (need 13 INT), steadfast are all good picks but IKD and stdfast cost you two feats each that's 6 feats total, leaving you 3 feats to toy with. One will be for damage : power attack or northlander hewing and the rest should be extend rage feats but then you're two feats short.

So if you really want all those feats there's less choices : fighter or divine champion. Since Barbarian gets a big a power up at 20 I prefer to go with only 1 other class, Barb 26/Fighter 4 would work well and the progression will be smooth. If you don't mind late blooming builds then something like Barb 20/ Fighter 6/ Anointed Knight 4 is very well rounded.

Finally, what skills are must-have? I think I want heal and tumble, I hear I want UMD too. Spellcraft? Survival (is it even useful for anything besides RP?) Spot? Listen?

Tumble depends on your final AC, i'm happy with 10 tumble on my Barb 26/Cleric 4. Heal is so good you don't want to pass it, spellcraft is excellent to shore up your saving throws ... and you should have enough skill points to get at least 15 ranks, 30 if you open up the skill.

Also yes, you want UMD, at least 10 points and a bit more to be able to equip any item. Detection skill is an absolute must unless you don't care about all those sneakers.

Three variants on Barb 20/fighter 6/ AK 4 alone :

http://nwn2db.com/build/?256585
http://nwn2db.com/build/?258460
http://nwn2db.com/build/?275521

Depending on if you need the one extra feat from fighter 1 I would argue B20/DC6/AK4 is superior to B/F/AK. 1 less feat, but better saving throws and every 5 minutes a clicky for +3 AB/Damage that lasts 3 rounds + Charisma modifier. Sure Weapon Specialization gives +2 damage all the time, but only with 1 weapon type. There is something to be said for foregoing WS on a Barbarian so you can use the weapon that fits the situation, such as the Greataxe/Warmace discussion. If you have WS in a Greatsword and you find or have the ability to purchase an epic Warmace for relatively little cost than you either have wasted feats, have to RCR or just don't use the epic weapon in favor of whatever Greatsword you can find... Sure, DC requires Weapon Focus, so you of course want to pick a weapon that you prefer to use most often, but losing 1 AB is not that big of a deal in the long run and you still gain the extra benefits of DC which IMO are superior to Fighter due to the bonus to saving throws which are important on any build.

WatWatsen wrote:I wanna stay as a human and use a greataxe for RP. Thinking stats of 18/10/16/12/8/8 unless those are really dumb and bad.

They are fine, and if you are going for Epic Rage (no reason not to) and as high Strength as possible, you could go for Barbarian 20/Warrior of Darkness 10 and reach 44 strength at level 30. That is base strength modifier of 17! Combine it with Improved Knockdown and you tend to knockdown everything that is not immune to knockdown. But to get Improved Knockdown you kind of want to have at least 13 Intelligence, you could lower either constitution to 14 or strength to 16 to make it possible.

WatWatsen wrote:What kind of class splits are solid? I hear "20 barb/10 anything else" is good.

This is true. Though you should note that you want to get to Barbarian 20 ASAP, so the best way to go at it usually is to get as many Barbarian levels pre-epic, so that you can have Mighty Rage at level 23 or 24, with Epic Rage at level 25 as it requires 21 Strength and 25 BAB.

WatWatsen wrote:Being a divine champion of Tempus would be pretty cool

I currently made a new character just to play a Half-Orc Barbarian/Divine Champion. The reason why this build combination is one the best is because you can use the Divine Champion bonus feats to get stuff like Epic Prowess, Epic Damage Reduction, and Epic Toughness, while also letting you have that +5 to all your saves. Pre-epic, Divine Champion costs Weapon Focus and it lets you pick up Blindfight so it is all good.

However, Barbarian and Divine Champion do not come with free Heavy Armor proficiency. Therefore you kind of need to get little bit more dexterity to make most out of Light or Medium Armor. My new Half-Orc started with 17 STR, 16 DEX, 17 CON, 10 INT, 8 WIS, and 6 CHA, and should end up with base 24 STR and 22 CON. Thus with just a +2 DEX belt, I can wear Chainshirt and get working Evasion...

You could replace the Divine Champion levels with Figther levels, you will just be short of the +5 to all saves as Fighter bonus feats can be used to get the above mentioned feats. You get Heavy Armor profiency along with Towershield at level 2, if you so want.

WatWatsen wrote:I also hear I want 5 FB for enhanced power attack, and mixing in some fighter levels helps with being starved for feats, so something like 20-21 barb, 5-6 fb, 4 ftr.

It is a possibility, and were the Epic Rage strength requirement not lowered to 21, I would recommend it. However, as discussed before, Barbarians can reach rather high strength and the Enchanced Power Attack is less necessary. The sheer brunt of your strength modifier is enough to cover most of the server, and with just one feat spent on Northlander Hewing you can just cleave through 20/- DR on some mob. (Northlander Hewing cuts down the number of attacks to 2/3 rounded down, so with BAB of 26 you get 4 attacks, but it does let you have your strength modifier as additional blunt damage, and it does maximise your weapon damage roll. Note: it does not really increase critical hit damage though... So don't built for that.)

WatWatsen wrote:I've heard from experienced builders that I'd want between 6 to 12 levels of fighter, but then I wouldn't hit barb 20 which has some nice goodies.

12 levels is a must for the cookie cutter weapon master build, but a barbarian can do with less, 4-10 is fine as it lets you get stuff like proficiencies and some epic feats.

WatWatsen wrote:How well do FB and barb synergize, or is FB done just to get toughness+enhanced power attack? Rage and frenzy are separate and don't stack, right?

Frenzy doesn't stack with items because it grants the same type ability bonus, Rage stacks with items and hence also with Frenzy. However, there is a hard in game ability 'buff' cap of 12, so while a Barbarian 11/Frenzied Berserker 5 could get +12 strength, Barbarian 20/Frenzied Berserker 10 would still just get +12 strength, even though our Barbarian has Epic Rage for +10, and Frenzied Berserker gives another +10...

Frenzy does let you have Deathward effect though, and if you combine it with some regeneration items, Standard Rage for its new regenration perks, and grab a Vampiric Weapon you can pretty much use Frenzy alongside with your normal rage. Alternatively you can build for Fast Healing III to get +6 Regeneration. (23 Constitution) After all, Frenzy gives that +1 attack, and Deathward, so this is actually something to consider. But it does come with that -4 to AC though... Thus the use is situational.

WatWatsen wrote:What do you guys think about standard rage vs whirlwind rage? I'm reading a lot of conflicting info about which is better.

Are you starting from scratch with no equipment? In that case the Whirlwind Frenzy might be the better choice simply because of the extra attack and how it can get you +13 AC with Icetroll Berserker and its Dodge bonus.

However, a Standard Rage barbarian could just buy +3 Heavy Shield from the in game Consingment Store and have more less the same total AC until levels 23-25~... Whirlwind Frenzy comes with -2 AC penalty if you rage with a shield on, this basically negates the benefit you would get from wielding a heavy shield, with Whirlwind Frenzy.

But if you are going to two-hand some great weapon, Whirlwind Frenzy is good simply for the extra AC it gives.

WatWatsen wrote:As a general philosophy, do I want to build to just max damage, or do I want to build for survivability so that I'm not a glass cannon? E.g. is it dumb to take the damage resistance feats and the fast regen feats? I'm also not sure what feats I really need and want... I think I want luck of heroes, icetroll berserker, improved knockdown, and steadfast determination, not really sure what else. One school of thought seems to be that rage is your everything, and you need all the extra rage/extend rage/rage boosting feats as possible. But that won't leave a lot of room for other extras.

I would not build a Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarian without Extend Rage III, I feel that it gives rage that lasts just long enough and longer duration is always better. For Standard Rage, Extend Rage II is actually enough because it also grants longer duration by default by increasing constitution.

In Baldur's Gate palace District, there is a merchant in 'the Wide' that sells an amulet that grants Extra Rage feat. Go buy that.

As for the other feats:
- Epic Damage Resistance, my epic strength based barbarians have done find without it. It is nice to have though.
- Fast Healing, if you got the feats to spare, you can go for these things. But I would put Epic Damage Resistance as a preferene over Fast Healing, as damage resistance works against every hit. But if you combine the both, add Regeneration Cloak and Vampiric weapon... Dying? What is that?
- Luck of Heroes, you can do without, I would take Able Learner Instead. Take Able Learner as it lets you spend skill points better.
- Icetroll Berserker is a must feat to have.
- I've actually played Barbarians without Steadfast Determination, so you can make do too.
- Blindfight is a very necessary feat, some PRCs grant as a class feature or possible extra feat.
- Improved Knockdown, requires 13 Intelligence. Thus you can have it, and if you go for the max strength barbarian, it is a nice thing to have. But if not, you can actually skip it and not really notice it missing.

Oh, and you need to make a choice between Northlander Hewing and Improved Power Attack, some builds can fit in both too you know. But Northlander Hewing does tend to lean more towards the sword and board type of character, so two-handed +12 damage from IPA migth be the best choice to go for simply because of the number of attacks you get. You can still go for Northlander Hewing on a two-handed character, and I have, I just feel the IPA is better if you got the feats.

WatWatsen wrote:Finally, what skills are must-have? I think I want heal and tumble, I hear I want UMD too. Spellcraft? Survival (is it even useful for anything besides RP?) Spot? Listen?

Heal even a cross class skill is lovely. Tumble, 10 ranks for +1 AC. UMD skill of 10-13 lets you use all items. Spellcraft lets you get +1 against spells for every 5 ranks. Survival lets you see monsters on the area as brown blibs on the minimap, makes grinding less of a chore, but you kind of need to get the feat Track to get most out of it. (Cloak of the Elven Kind comes with the feat.) Spot and Listen, well, if you are not really planning to go against player sneaks, you can do well with none.

As for a good skill you didn't list, Appraise as it gives more gold and makes things cheaper in NPC stores. Other is Open Lock, as it lets you open locks for little extra experience.

I guess that is about all.

Valefort wrote:Barbarian is powerful enough that you can choose any path you've listed and be fine now, going for EDR or fast regen feats is totally playable. Another example : I'm playing a similar concept, 2-hander Barb 26 / Cleric 4 of Tempus with epic rage and EDM in mind (not there yet) and it's doing great all around.

Tempus, or TEMPOS if you are from the North, well, Tempos is a Chaotic Neutral deity so you could also consider Barbarian 26/Blackguard 4 as that would give you your charisma modifier on top of your base saves. The only downside in Blackgaurd is that it comes with some requirements - but cleric on a wrong race comes with multiclassing experience penalty. So it depends.

It already has expose weakness, there's only so much cheese I can stand.

I went with a B20/10DW.

Dragon Warrior has a nice elemental damage boost for your weapon as well as one hell of a breath attack. Since Dragon Warrior also has High BAB here on BG it is a very nice combo for Barbarian.

Gets Expose Weakness and I for sure put Northlander Hewing on it. Fully expect a raging death machine at 30. Is level 21 right now and does fine so far. Uses 2H weapons but can go any weapon and even go sword and board for those high ac situations. I do not think you can not put NH on a barb build to be honest. All that rage and extra damage being maxed out for 2/3 of you your attacks? YES PLEASE! Throw up using IPA with Expose Weakness spam and you get a lot of dead monsters and a perpetually pissed off buzzsaw with some dragon breath......

Calodan, does NH correctly multiply on critical hits? I'm playing Barbarian/Battlerager and were thinking whether or not to take it. Also level 21.

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:Calodan, does NH correctly multiply on critical hits? I'm playing Barbarian/Battlerager and were thinking whether or not to take it. Also level 21.

From what I understand it not quite right on critical hits. That part NH is still buggy but we are talking about peanuts of damage in truth for that. The real cheese in NH is bringing up your AVG damage by making your normal hits do more which is really what a great build needs to do. I would say to have a build that does what you want in PvE should do about 40-50 damage avg per hit. If you do not have that then you need other things to be high. I.E. AC over 50, DR 10+ or Regen 10+.

Calodan wrote:Dragon Warrior has a nice elemental damage boost for your weapon as well as one hell of a breath attack. Since Dragon Warrior also has High BAB here on BG it is a very nice combo for Barbarian.

It also has high will saves, fear immunity, lets you have tumble as a class skill, etc... Basically you get a lot of things just for having 2 points in Lore: Arcana and BAB of 5.

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote:Calodan, does NH correctly multiply on critical hits? I'm playing Barbarian/Battlerager and were thinking whether or not to take it. Also level 21.

It does not. For example one my current characters with a '+4 1d6 x2' weapon deals 30 points of damage with Northlander Hewing Active. If critical hits were working correctly, those would do 60 points of damage. The damage I usually get is between 30-40 points of damage. In otherwords, when you do get a critical hit, you roll your weapon damage dice and you do not add the Northlander Hewing bonus damage to it. Thus critical hits will do the same damage that they would without having Northlander Hewing active.

Thus, going for Northlander Hewing and Critical hits is not a good idea.

And part of me does not even want it fixed, because if it ever does get fixed, then the feat will most likely get nerfed in one way or another. Perhaps it goes back to ½ of your attacks, or perhaps the Northlander Hewing bonus damage gets reduced to a ½...

Re. Chad's point about DC. Tough call, I think. I guess it depends on the build and opponents and I tend to go for feat starved builds, but even in general it seems to me that esp. for a build that is weapon-fexible Fighter has a slight edge. Here's why:
1) free Tower Shield profiency (maybe not relevant in this thread except when you're fleeing)
2) one extra feat
3) Fighter does not require a weapon-specific feat and hence frees up another, second feat slot that can, in almost every build, be used for at least +1 AB independent of weapon (One Weapon, Epic Prowess, or +1 Epic STR with the right ability distribution) or +1 AC.

Moreover, CHA is low with most Barb builds, and saves can be gotten by items more easily than extra AC, so I'd go for Fighter after all.

Splitting hairs, but it's fun somehow.

Calodan wrote:I went with a B20/10DW.

By the way, was this before or after your Favored Soul Kory ran away screaming like a little girl from a confused Halfling Barbarian/Dragon Slayer?

Sorry, cough, cough.

Really appreciate all the great input! Thanks everyone.

Okay, so trying to put all this together:

I think I wanna go barb20/ftr6/ak4 because I can't see any other way to squeeze all the feats in, though DC does sound tempting (and I wanna be CG so no evil classes)

Stat-wise, I think I'm looking at 18/9/16/13/8/8, I can probably get up to +3 gear but I'm poor so don't want to count on any +4 stuff. I also didn't realize the DR and regen feats take 21+ con, they are tempting but I think with a race like human I'm better off maximizing strength and not chasing str and con at the same time, yes?

Sounds like whirlwind rage is the way to go for a 2h. But what about improved power attack vs Northlander? I suppose I'm giving up on FB, so enhanced power attack is out of the question.

Is chasing improved knockdown worth it? I'd thought I'd really need it for caster mobs/PVP, but I've never played a char into the epic levels, and if everything late-game is immune to it then it'd be less appealing.

As far as skills, looks like I want able learner + listen, heal, tumble, spellcraft, and UMD. In that case, wouldn't I want to work AK in as soon as possible in order to get heal, tumble, and spellcraft as class skills? Or am I better off delaying it until I need blindfight and getting as many barb levels ASAP?

E: Also, expose weaknesses seems really cheesy to me, will I be able to get along without it? :V

WatWatsen wrote:Stat-wise, I think I'm looking at 18/9/16/13/8/8, I can probably get up to +3 gear but I'm poor so don't want to count on any +4 stuff. I also didn't realize the DR and regen feats take 21+ con, they are tempting but I think with a race like human I'm better off maximizing strength and not chasing str and con at the same time, yes?

Remember that Epic Strength gives +10 strength, so at best you can make use of a +2 Strength item to reach the cap of +12.

As for reaching Epic DR, etc... Humans can go for Epic Divine Might that requires both 21 strength and charisma with just starting 16 in both of these stats. Epic Rage requires Mighty Rage, BAB of 25, and 21 strength. Epic Damage reduction requires 21 constitution, while Fast Healing I requires 21 constitution, with 22 for Fast Healing II, and 23 for Fast Healing III.

Now, because you want to go for "barb20/ftr6/ak4" it means that you should take 3 levels of fighter and 4 levels of anointed knight pre-epic, so you get 13 levels of Barbarian pre-epic, hence you can get Mighty and Epic Rage at level 27 soonest.

18 + 3 (Base Ability Increase) = 21 strength
16 + 4 (Base Ability Increase) = 20 constitution

I would spend one epic feat on Great Strength to reach even base strength, the Barbarian bonus feat at level 20 goes for Epic Rage, and the two Fighter Bonus feats taken during epic levels go for Epic Damage Reduction. Thus you have 4 epic feats left, and you can reach 22 constitution with two Great Constitution feats and also fit in Fast Healing II.

Thus you would get DR of 11/-, 4 points of Regeneration, 34 strength with Epic Rage active, and 22 base constitution.

If you want all Epic Damage Reduction and Fast Healing feats, you need to start with at least 18 in both constitution and strength.

But with your current build, I would just go for high strength. It is easy, you deal more damage and knockdown even better if you go for it. But you do have the option to go for a tanky build.

Oh, and the reason I would go for 4 levels of anointed knight pre-epic is just to get their ability add fire damage to your weapon. It is very handy against trolls.

WatWatsen wrote:Sounds like whirlwind rage is the way to go for a 2h. But what about improved power attack vs Northlander? I suppose I'm giving up on FB, so enhanced power attack is out of the question.

Northlander Hewing, one feat. Improved Power Attack, two feats. Improved Power Attack is more damage per round simply because you get more attacks per round and can score higher critical hits. With Northlander Hewing the base damage for critical hits is just weapon damage dice, enchantment bonus and strength modifier, for IPA it is the same and the IPA damage included. (Although there are some scenarios where NH will end up doing more damage.)

So, the big question is, one feat or two feats.

WatWatsen wrote:Is chasing improved knockdown worth it? I'd thought I'd really need it for caster mobs/PVP, but I've never played a char into the epic levels, and if everything late-game is immune to it then it'd be less appealing.

Most non-druid spellbook characters are not immune to knockdown, at least not without using UMD and spells with short durations. I have not had a Improved Knockdown Barbarian in years, but there should be enemies that you can knockdown.

WatWatsen wrote:As far as skills, looks like I want able learner + listen, heal, tumble, spellcraft, and UMD. In that case, wouldn't I want to work AK in as soon as possible in order to get heal, tumble, and spellcraft as class skills? Or am I better off delaying it until I need blindfight and getting as many barb levels ASAP?

I would get AK ASAP to get the skills as early as possible, and the same goes for Anoint Weapon ability. Got to love that +1 fire damage on whatever weapon you find.

WatWatsen wrote:E: Also, expose weaknesses seems really cheesy to me, will I be able to get along without it? :V

Over the years I have had 5 or 6 epic barbarians on this server without it. You can do without it. Also, if you go for Northlander Hewing, it only costs -2 AB, -AC, and 1/3 of your attacks, so you basically have rocket high AB... hence no real need for it.

It is still handy against some super high AC PvP builds, or some bosses, but those are not necessary content. Not to mention that there might be fixes to coming to Expose Weakness, for example it just working in light armor just like evasion that the feat requires...

Sorry for the necro, but I am really curious about the viable barbarian builds you can make.

I'm very interested in making a solid melee character and this topic really has some good ideas.