Rogue Kit Suggestions

[Sun Wukong]

Ruffian - Instead of getting 1d6 Sneak Attack Dice every three levels, the Rogue gets +1 melee damage per hit with Finesseable Weapons.

Thus a level 30 Rogue would not get that 15d6 Sneak Attack Dice, but rather +15 damage per hit. Thus for example a Rogue 25/Swashbuckler 5, could have something like +13 damage from Ruffian kit, and +5 from Combat Insight, and another +5 from Insightful strike, for a total of +23 damage to their weapon.

I think this kit would help free Rogues from the need to go for 'HiPS' to deal damage.


If you got some rogue kit suggestion, go ahead, suggest. It never hurts to suggest.

[Sun Wukong]

Now, no one has commented, perhaps the '+15' damage per hit with limited weapon choice might seem too good even for a medium BAB class.

Thus how about we change it to 1d1 at 'Ruffian' level one, 1d2 at 'Ruffian' level 3, 1d3 at 'Ruffian' level 5... 1d15 at 'Ruffian' level 29, and remove the weapon damage restriction?

Even though you could theoretically use Northlander Hewing to get +15 points of damage, but with medium BAB you are only looking at 5 attacks per round and hence 3 when the mode is active. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting would get 5 Northlander Hewing attacks per round, and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting would get 6. You would still be wearing light armor, and have just d6 hitdice. But in theory, you could deal damage without needing to invest in stealth abilities.

[Face]

Thug is actualy a base class on nwn2 db.

[Sun Wukong]

Thug is a fighter variant class that gives sneak attack dice progression instead of bonus feats. Not bad choice for a feinter in my opinion.

So in a way my suggestion is the opposite of that, rogue variant that gives more damage. I suppose it could be a possibility to grant fighter bonus feats on a rogue skill set instead of bonus damage.

[chad878262]

There are a few problems I see with Ruffian:

1. +15 damage per hit times up to 10 per round is 150 damage. Meanwhile 15d6 = ~52.5 * 4 attacks (first flurry) = ~210. Rogue's have a medium BAB so they are not going to land all 10 attacks, maybe about 1/2 of them, dropping that 150 down to ~75.

2. As stated above, they don't have high BAB, HiPS is not just about landing sneak attacks, it is about landing hits! Rogue final attack bonus is generally somewhere between 34-37 unless they give up significant sneak dice to gain attack bonus.

3. HiPS is also a Rogue's primary means of DEFENSE. Their will and fortitude saves (the two that are required against save or suck spells) are crap. Even if you dedicate significant item slots to ++saves gear you are likely to end up in the low 20's at best. With no means to dodge spells you will be spamming a mantle wand so often you'll never be able to make enough gold to keep up.

This is not to say a kit could not be created that doesn't rely on HiPS, but I think a lot more work would be needed to make it so. In my opinion the Divine Seeker PRC has a lot of potential to partially fill this gap by possible giving use/day or cooldown abilities that allow the roguish type to improve saves/defenses and AB to allow them to have some defenses and attacks without HiPS. However, I haven't spent the time to look at it in depth and what would be required to keep it a balanced PRC and not turn it in to another scenario where Rogue-like PRC's get dipped by Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric type classes to gain perks without an XP penalty (such as Whirling Dervish for Evasion, for example). I have said before and I still believe that the unfortunate issue with Rogue PRC's is that they often give the same or similar benefits as what a Rogue already gets (evasion, uncanny dodge, sneak dice, etc) so they actually benefit non-rogues even more than rogues in some ways. Fighter types have PRC's like Divine Champion, Blackguard, Anointed Knight/WoD, Dragon Warrior, Thayan Knight all improve a warrior types weaknesses to the point of making them strengths (Saving throws, especially Will) while still improving upon the Warriors strengths as well. Meanwhile Rogue PRC's, while in most cases bringing something to the rogue they would not otherwise get (HiPS, Death Attack, extra AC, etc.) they give the same thing to any non-rogue, while also granting them the same benefits that a rogue already gets. There really is no Anointed Knight/WoD type of PRC for a Rogue and Guild Thief Bonus Feat list is so limited as to hardly be a benefit (the level 4 feat can't be epic because no epic feats are on the bonus list).

Any Rogue Kit or PRC being introduced in my opinion should follow your 'Ruffian' model of doing something significantly different then Rogue, but needs to go farther by actually giving some types of options to take away some of the Rogues 'glass cannon' damage, while granting more defenses in return so as to make the Rogue not fully reliant on HiPS / UMD as their only means of defense.

[Sun Wukong]

There are a few problems I see with Ruffian:

The Ruffian could get +1 AB for every five levels of 'Rogue' and thus get +6 AB with 30 levels. It should help out with their damage output. Similar bonus could be considered for their fortitude save, it could be called Hardiness as opposed to a Swashbuckler's Grace ability.

You could also consider granting them armor and shield proficiencies, which could increase their general tankyness if you are going for a sword and board type of build. Not to mention that if you are not going for Perfect Two-Weapon fighting, you could settle down for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Medium Armor to make most out of that base 19 dexterity, which means that you can use dexterity items to make more out of mithral suits of armor. You could even go strength based to increase your damage and carrying capacity.

But in a way I am not that worried about the surviability of the Ruffian, because with the removal of sneak attack dice as extra damage, you have also removed the need to invest heavily in stealth or bluff based equipment. You do not need to get that +2 or better skill bonus on each of your item slots. You can just go straight for the +3 or +4 AC items, and then pile up on items that raise your saves. Now, save bonuses no longer stack on the same item slots, but you can easily use Ring of Resistance to get +2 All saves and a Ring of Fortitude +4 to get +2 Fortitude saves on top that.