Harper Mage Build for Nedrin

[Babuguuscooties]

So eventually Harper Mage is released! If RP leads my character in that direction I'm considering RCRing to use the class.

Now, I know that you can't have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. This is NWN2, after-all.

All I'm asking is for a bit of help tweaking the build as much as possible within the following boundaries:

(I'm having trouble getting it all together using nwn2db bc it doesn't actually have either HM or AM)

Race: Half-Elf
WIS: No less than 12 (Level 1)
INT: No less than 18 (Level 1)
Specialization: Transmutation

Classes: Wizard / Arcane Scholar / Harper Mage / Archmage

[Hawke]

Harper Mage has been out for a month or two now.

[Babuguuscooties]

Harper Mage has been out for a month or two now.

Oh lol, well in that case make it double time, sir!

[Hawke]

Harper Mage does not pair well with ASOC. And the build is super tight, and I wouldn't want to do a harper build without Able Learner.

It's possible by taking AM to 8 or so do this, but I assumed the build to be 5/5/10/10 layout.


http://nwn2db.com/build/?275768

Honestly, I think any class would be better to fit in than asoc.

[Babuguuscooties]

Harper Mage does not pair well with ASOC. And the build is super tight, and I wouldn't want to do a harper build without Able Learner.

It's possible by taking AM to 8 or so do this, but I assumed the build to be 5/5/10/10 layout.


http://nwn2db.com/build/?275768

Honestly, I think any class would be better to fit in than asoc.

Just curious, why does it not pair well with ASoC?

EDIT: Also, If not ASoC what would you recommend for a Transmutation specialist (RP-wise and mechanically, even if it doesnt really offer much atm)?

[Hawke]

Harper Mage takes 2 feats.

ASOC takes 3 Feats.

Neither are shared feats.

ASOC and AM have a shared feat.

BM and ASOC have a shared feat.

HM and AM have a shared feat

Thaum and AM and HM have a shared feat.


You see the trend.

[Sun Wukong]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?275775 <= Have a look at that.

Harper Mage takes 2 feats, and gives 2 feats back, Spell Focus and Skill Focus Spellcraft. ASoC requires Skill Focus Spellcraft, alongside with Archmage, which also benefits from the spare Spell Focus feat.

[Hawke]

Harper Mage gives 3 feats back.

Skill Focus -any knowledge
Spell Focus (ONLY the first spell focus, not greater)
Extend Spell

You also get +2 save for all spells.

Plus it opens A LOT of skills. I wish it had appraise, or the required feats were more magicy in nature like in pen and paper so it makes more sense.

If Harper Agent was fixed up the same way as Harper Mage and Harper Priest, I would take Harper Agent and eat that 1 CL loss.

[Babuguuscooties]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?275775 <= Have a look at that.

Harper Mage takes 2 feats, and gives 2 feats back, Spell Focus and Skill Focus Spellcraft. ASoC requires Skill Focus Spellcraft, alongside with Archmage, which also benefits from the spare Spell Focus feat.

Okay, so that seems great. I noticed we can't fit in Spellcasting Prodigy at level one though. I was originally told I do not want to lose that feat. What is your take on it?

[Hawke]

If you want to rely on DCs, then yeah, Prodigy is like taking 2 epic feats for stat bonus for casters.

If you drop ASOC for BM, you Take Toughness, then Iron will and Alert for HM, and Skill -spellcraft and spell focus whatever that is 5 Feats for class requirements

If you had ASOC in there instead, Empower, Skill- concentration & skill spellcraft, alert and iron will, and finally spell focus.

For a total of 6 feats.

There is a number of builds you can do but what synergizes nice with harper mage?

Wiz/HM/Thaum/DK Then you need 4 feats and get a lot back. A lot back. Then you could go armored or not. Your choice.


All in all, you now have even more options for a caster because of the Development team taking the time in improving Harper to make it actually be more feasible to take.


I have one build with Harper Mage that gives me 389 skill points. And not gimped. Wait, no, that is with Harper Agent... and a CL of 29. With Harper Mage it is 379 skill points and CL30.

I like this PrC.

[Babuguuscooties]

If you want to rely on DCs, then yeah, Prodigy is like taking 2 epic feats for stat bonus for casters.

If you drop ASOC for BM, you Take Toughness, then Iron will and Alert for HM, and Skill -spellcraft and spell focus whatever that is 5 Feats for class requirements

If you had ASOC in there instead, Empower, Skill- concentration & skill spellcraft, alert and iron will, and finally spell focus.

For a total of 6 feats.

There is a number of builds you can do but what synergizes nice with harper mage?

Wiz/HM/Thaum/DK Then you need 4 feats and get a lot back. A lot back. Then you could go armored or not. Your choice.


All in all, you now have even more options for a caster because of the Development team taking the time in improving Harper to make it actually be more feasible to take.


I have one build with Harper Mage that gives me 389 skill points. And not gimped. Wait, no, that is with Harper Agent... and a CL of 29. With Harper Mage it is 379 skill points and CL30.

I like this PrC.

I like it as well. I'm all for synergies, but this character is already established in RP and I don't want to drastically change the look and play-style by wearing heavy armor, for instance.

That's why I tried to include my current build and just add HM to it. However, not being Human and getting that bonus feat is obviously gonna make that a stretch at best.

I'm really not that concerned about the skill points though, since even now I have plenty in every lore skill save for arch-engineering, and I even have plenty of diplomacy. Beyond that idk what I'd even put points into.... Sense motive? Appraise? That's about it.

I think Thaum is very interesting as well. I have absolutely nothing against that PrC. Heck, I already use my summon all the time bc I solo so often. It'd only make me stronger in that sense.

My initial concern was wanting high DCs bc I thought that was the only real way to play a wizard. I'm learning that I was wrong to assume that. Even without insanely high DCs you can still mop the floor with people with the right spell selection. I see why people say wizards are OP

That aside, I'm not sure I'm confident enough yet to completely abandon the idea of being able to turn people to stone

RP wise I know I want Transmuter. I don't mind my 2nd spell focus being in conjuration though. That'd boost my summon with Thaum a bit, but is it worth doing if I don't go all in with conjuration and stuff?


Edit: Oh, and what is DK? Is that short for Eldritch Knight?

[Sun Wukong]

Harper Mage gives 3 feats back.

Nope, it gets 4 feats back. I didn't even notice that it gets free Extend Spell. Have to update the build I made. I switched the Extend Spell feat for Blind-Fight, since Disintegrate (Transmutation) makes a Ranged Touch Attack. It could be switched for some Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus in a preferred school.

Skill Focus Lore (Any), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) at level 2, Extend Spell at level 3, and Spell Focus (any) at level 5.

Okay, so that seems great. I noticed we can't fit in Spellcasting Prodigy at level one though. I was originally told I do not want to lose that feat. What is your take on it?

It basically gives you +1 Spell DCs and one additional level 6 spell slot if you were to fit it in.

Techncially you could go for something like a Wizard 7/Harper Mage 5/Arcane Scholar 8/Archmage 10, or Wizard 7/Harper Mage 5/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 8 depending on whether you want additional Archmage perks or to be able to cast a Quickened Disintegrate spell. Your Able Learner feat would be pushed for later as well, to level 15 to be precise, thus you would get no Blindfight or any additional Spell Focus feat.

Hence, if you would want it all, I'd keep the build that is up for now, and just switch the Race to a Human or a Strongheart Halfling and pick the Spellcasting Prodigy feat their racial bonus feat.

Anyhow, the difference of DC is just... one...
10 (Base DC)
+ 11 (32 Intelligence)
+ 4 (Epic caster bonus, with Archmage Spell Power II)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus in Transmutation)
+ 6 (Disintegrate base spell level)
= 34 or 35 (With Spellcasting Prodigy)

But if you want to squeeze as high Disintegrate DC as possible, I would switch to a +2 Int race and go for a Wizard 7/Harper Mage 5/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 8 with Spellcasting Prodigy taken at level 1. This would give you Disintegrate spell DC of 36.

Thus the question is, more or less, if you want to have 5% or 10% higher chance to succeed with your Disintegrate spell - or would you prefer to stick with your original RP concept? (The late Able Learner means a lot of burned skill points, which might not be that terrible on a wizard, but you will have lower and less skills at your disposal.)

[Babuguuscooties]

Harper Mage gives 3 feats back.

Nope, it gets 4 feats back. I didn't even notice that it gets free Extend Spell. Have to update the build I made. I switched the Extend Spell feat for Blind-Fight, since Disintegrate (Transmutation) makes a Ranged Touch Attack. It could be switched for some Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus in a preferred school.

Skill Focus Lore (Any), Skill Focus (Spellcraft) at level 2, Extend Spell at level 3, and Spell Focus (any) at level 5.

Okay, so that seems great. I noticed we can't fit in Spellcasting Prodigy at level one though. I was originally told I do not want to lose that feat. What is your take on it?

It basically gives you +1 Spell DCs and one additional level 6 spell slot if you were to fit it in.

Techncially you could go for something like a Wizard 7/Harper Mage 5/Arcane Scholar 8/Archmage 10, or Wizard 7/Harper Mage 5/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 8 depending on whether you want additional Archmage perks or to be able to cast a Quickened Disintegrate spell. Your Able Learner feat would be pushed for later as well, to level 15 to be precise, thus you would get no Blindfight or any additional Spell Focus feat.

Hence, if you would want it all, I'd keep the build that is up for now, and just switch the Race to a Human or a Strongheart Halfling and pick the Spellcasting Prodigy feat their racial bonus feat.

Anyhow, the difference of DC is just... one...
10 (Base DC)
+ 11 (32 Intelligence)
+ 4 (Epic caster bonus, with Archmage Spell Power II)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus in Transmutation)
+ 6 (Disintegrate base spell level)
= 34 or 35 (With Spellcasting Prodigy)

But if you want to squeeze as high Disintegrate DC as possible, I would switch to a +2 Int race and go for a Wizard 7/Harper Mage 5/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 8 with Spellcasting Prodigy taken at level 1. This would give you Disintegrate spell DC of 36.

Thus the question is, more or less, if you want to have 5% or 10% higher chance to succeed with your Disintegrate spell - or would you prefer to stick with your original RP concept? (The late Able Learner means a lot of burned skill points, which might not be that terrible on a wizard, but you will have lower less skills at your disposal.)

I'm all for not having spellcasting prodigy. In fact, if you read Ned's backstory you'd see he actually wasn't a prodigy. So in that way it fits more not to have it. I got it because I was under the impression that if you missed it the build was gimped. Is 35 DC gonna be okay for pvp? I have to ask just to make sure. My biggest problem is I'm still learning everything.

[Hawke]

Doh! You are right.

Skill focus Spellcraft at level 2.

So it makes going AM even better. 2/3 of your required feats is handled by taking 2 semi useless feats.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[Sun Wukong]

PvP?

Ehh...

If I think of my current highest level Barbarian/Warrior of Darkness with the easily acquirable equipment, then he should be able to get his fortitude save up to 30 at level 30 against your DC of 34. This would mean that your spell has 15% chance to stop him in his tracks. DC of 35 would have 20%, and the DC of 36 would be at 25%.

Now, Harper Mage does open up spot as a class skill, and hence you can have very high detection thanks to your freedom to acquire and stock up on detection equipment. Thus, some sneak might not have as high fortitude save, perhaps only something like 15 and against DC of 34 that would basically give your character a 95% chance to nail the sneak exactly where he stands.

Now, these are very simple examples, PvP in action can be far more complicated matter. With or without UMD. But I would like to remind how Wizard spell list is full of spells that work differently against different characters, and luck alongside with your distance to the server will always play a role as well.

So... You can be fine, or you could be reduced to a bloody pile of goo in a single round. It just depends on who you are facing... What protections you have up, and what protections the opponent lacks... But as an arcanist... You already have half-the-battle on your side. (Bigby spells can be used to nail a melee character such as mine to the ground, at least for few rounds, which should give time to spam those save or die spells, for one example.)