Focused Discussion: Crafting

[Zanniej]

Is that a rhetorical question?

Let's see. I will start with what I think would be the most awesome system:

Items (weapons, armors, etc) can be crafted. This requires the specific crafting skill, and components. For example, you could make a zalanter staff, but then you'd need zalanter wood, perhaps some leather for a handle, etc.
The better the crafting components and your skill, the better the weapon is.

Then you will go find yourself an enchanter. The better your weapon, the better the enchantments it can hold. However, enchantments require components and gems too. Perhaps some of those crafting components we already have, a diamond (wasn't there a new gem system in the making as well?) and the souls of thousand innocent kittens. That would for example be required to make a top tier (epic tier, or slightly beyond epic tier) weapon.

Thus, you'd need someone who can craft weapons, craft magical weapons and armors and cast the right spells. Those persons need to find hard to come by ingredients. (Want that weapon of yours to do 1d4 fire damage? Sure! Bring me the tail of a balor and we'll get right to work)

So, in short, that's how I see it happening. Give it a slight edge over weapons you can buy and find, but only with a hefty investment, and you'll have crafters popping up on every corner, making weapons for newbies for nice prices, and even taking orders from the veterans, if they put in the legwork of finding the components.

[Valefort]

I don't want permanent item crafting because of two reasons :

• Power creep
• Optimization

The power creep point can be mostly solved by setting boundaries to the crafting system. The worry is that if no powerful item can be crafted it will hardly be used, and the other worry is the sliperry slope and people asking for the possibility to craft epic items as powerful as what is available in shops or the RIG.

Optimization is linked to power creep but slightly separate, essentially crafting would allow to make perfect item sets with nearly no overlapping. The argument that it makes for good RP, while valid, must be put in perspective : those items won't dissapear, eventually you'll have your set(s) of items. It allows to reach an "end game" in terms of gear, something that should be impossible to attain (otherwise it kills the major reason for adventuring).

If crafting is limited to consumables then it's fine. Crafting permanent items is sawing the branch you're sitting upon, getting a brief new source of enjoyment but killing the steady one.

[Tsidkenu]

100% yes, although my crafting character is now retired permanently

I would like to see the current crop of Imbue spells utilised IG, but with a system modified from Rasael's points system for item enchanting.

Imbue Item (level 1) = 1 Enchantment
Imbue Greater Item (level 6) = 2 Enchantments
Imbue Legendary Item (level 9) = 3 Enchantments

An 'enchantment' is any magical addition to an [unenchanted] item, be it +AC, +AB/EB, +damage type, +skill, +ability, +keen, +vampiric regeneration or +bonus spell slot.

Please permit existing items to be improved, assuming they do not already exceed the above maximum enchantment slots.

Such a system would become a much needed gold sink and also possibly utilise the random gem project fas components for crafting items.

Quite a lot of Hell store equipment will still be better but crafting/enchanting will be more widely available, albeit somewhat inferior in the number of enchantments available to be put on items. Such a system will finally bring an end to the accursed 'epic trade only' economy and make quality equipment with 'desirable' stats available to everyone for gold/gems/whatever other reagents you think would make such a system work. It allows for a degree of optimisation without it being true maximisation if certain store/rig items are still better.

[chad878262]

Ideally any crafting system implemented would be difficult to do on one PC. It should encourage (or even require!) Role Play / Partnerships amongst two or more players. So perhaps one skill for gathering raw materials, or set of skills (Mining Gems likely requires a bit more finesse than mining Iron, for example) and perhaps another set for enchanting materials, be they weapons, armor or other equipment.

Crafting and Enchanting should not further the gap between casters and non-casters, thus in my opinion previous iterations of crafting have always been flawed with the point system because the Enhancement Bonus costs points; that makes those who can cast GMW and IMA/MV able to craft items that are superior to those that can't. I have stated in the past I believe Enhancement Bonus should be a free enchantment (with regard to any point system, not gold...obviously there should still be a gold cost to place the enchantment). Basically anything that someone who can cast GMW can have enchanted, should be enchantable with an Enhancement Bonus. Otherwise, we end up with yet another area where it is simply always better to be a caster.

Enchanting to me is all about being able to customize the benefits your gear gives you. The items should be weaker than what can be found or purchased in the epic shops(no +4 Stat items, no multiple +4 skills, etc.), but should be the kind of item that if you found in the RIG you would be happy with and likely to keep if they filled a gap in your characters equipment. Need +3 WIS on a ring? You may get lucky and find it at some point or see it on the auction for 20-30K at some point. With Enchanting we could for example make that something you can find an enchanter to do. For a Gold Ring, a Sapphire and 20,000 gold they can craft you the exact ring you are looking for. Want that +4 Deflection on a belt instead of a helmet? You need to find a lesser Ioun Stone of deflection first, then give the crafter some kind of gem and 100K in gold and you have your deflection belt.

All of the sudden, we could theoretically make lesser used items that are found such as Ioun Stones and basically anything else something that can be utilized in crafting items in to customized slots. Sure, there are Natural Armor and Deflection items in epic stores that have some really awesome extra's on them... But if you could customize the slot or maybe get a lesser, but more beneficial to your character bonus on such items, than in my opinion crafting will have been successfully implemented. While Valefort's point about overlapping and end game gear sets is valid, the simple fact is that what has been presented for crafting in the past is not even near to the power level found in the epic shops, the RIG or even the epic items you can find in chests (should you win the lottery some day). Crafting won't ever be end game gear, instead it provides 'filler' gear that is good enough for an end game player until some day long in the future when they can obtain an item that is 'perfect' for what they are trying to obtain.

[LuvHandles]

I voted yes, but with a caveat. Since items never decay in NWN2, crafting permanent magic items will result in a saturation of the economy with the best equipment that can be crafted. You can take steps to limit the rate at which these items are created, but barring item loss to server crashes, the items will never be removed.

Because of that, I think that crafting should be limited to consumables, i.e. scrolls and potions (which we already have) and magical effects that consume charges. For example, you can't add an enhancement bonus to a weapon, but you can create a weapon that casts greater magic weapon for 1 charge per +1 enhancement.

This will serve two purposes. First, recharging the item will consume gold, acting as a gold sink to the economy. And second, it's my understanding that every time an item is recharged there is a chance that the item can explode, thus removing it from the economy and requiring a new item to be created and enchanted.

I would also say that the items to be enchanted should be player crafted, to make the crafting skills more useful. Perhaps a DC check to make a masterwork version of the item that can be enchanted. This system could be worked out later.

[Nemni]

Crafting would be really hard to balance. Make it weak and no one would do it. Make it strong and easy and everyone would do it, and no one would have to loot. Make it expensive character wise (feats, skills) and it would encourage crafting on alts rather than main chars. Make it strong but require lots of materials, and you are essentially just looting for rare ore instead of rare items and not much have changed. Personally my RPG fantasy is to find a beautiful powerful sword after defeating a dragon... not moonlighting as a smith to craft the sword myself.

Make everything crafted be consumables might work though, like others have suggested already. Like craft a powerful sword that wears down by usage, but can be repaired/recharged a few times like a wand. If such a thing is possible. Then items could be powerful/useful while still not demotivating people from finding normal items. Perhaps having a craft skill yourself would lessen the chance of breakdown during usage, which would demotivate people from crafting on alts.

[chad878262]

I do like the idea of player enchanted weapons/armors/items having a shelf life. Introduces a possible money sink while possibly allowing for some interesting methods to create items.

[7threalm]

I would suggest making "the base items" being very tiedus to create, like require 50 iron in the
rere loot table to craft a "enchantable sword". etc etc.

This would create a great gold sink and require lots of looting.

[Steve]

Crafting = making the physical item, in a material of choice.
Enchanting = placing magical effects upon/within an item.

So what exactly are we talking about here? Both-in-one-system?

[Rinzler]

I played a nwn1 server for many years that I believe had an incredible crafting & enchanting system. There were multiple different routes, and inevitably one could achieve:

- Master Blacksmith
- Master Enchanter
- Master Woodworker
- Master Alchemist

Each path had multiple levels of progression in it as well. Increasing your skill was earned in XP just like character levels. You physically had to practice your craft to level up, just like character levels. That means a long and tedious grind of collecting recipes and making items that probably aren't valuable enough to sell for quite sometime. The Master's of their craft (which were few) could craft the most elite items in the server.

EDIT: The masters of blacksmithing could put keen on a weapon (which was incredibly rare on the server I played). That's not the case on BG, so you'd have to find something a Master Blacksmith can put on a weapon or armor that otherwise wouldn't exist.

EDIT 2: To create an epic sword, for example. Would require a Master Woodworker to make the hilt, a master smith to make the blade, and a master enchanter to give it special abilities. So it requires 3 PCs that are masters of their craft to make ONE epic sword. What we're discussing here is 1 PC per 1 Epic sword and I don't think that should be the case.

Additionally, there were much more variables in the recipe of items then what is being discussed here. Smiths had to physically mine their ore, woodworkers physically cut down trees for different types of wood, and enchanters scower the far reaches of Faerun for the most precious gems and essences.

I don't remember exactly how, but there were class and race restrictions related to crafting as well. For example, wizards could be Master Enchanters but not Master Smiths and Dwarves had bonuses to smithing (as well access to the elite ore). Only wood elves could craft the most elite bows etc.

I will try and see if I can find all the specific details behind the crafting system but I fear they may be lost in the void.

As far as "Power Creep" is concerned. Meh, people power creep already and it's entirely relative. I also believe a crafting system will fix the market inefficiencies that BG faces currently, which I will be making a separate thread on this forum discussing.

[Calodan]

I voted yes for obvious reasons I think. I am all about CUSTOM PC GEAR.

However I do understand Power Creep and for me as good or as bad as the loot system is. IF we create a crafting system then weapons coming from the loot system will subpar now. Especially if the system allows for weapons and tiers of weapons beyond the loot system.

What I would propose is this.

Items with +2EB or AC of their type can have 4 max enchantments on them. IE say a Plate Armor +2 AC 10% fire immunity 3 STR 4 Spot?

Items with +3EB or AC of their type can have 3 max enchantments on them.

Items with +4EB or AC can have 2 max enchantments on them.

With crafting like skills needed to get items I think adding more skills to be professions thereby causing significant RP investment in skills for this as well giving actual economy since you can not have one PC that can do it all.....This would also make Rogues more viable since they are the resident skill hounds.

Make Craft Armor, Weapon, craft alchemy more useful again. Add in skills like woodcutter, miner, Make Trap setting useful again I.E. Animals killed by traps give crafting items the higher the trap and survival skill the better the or more items you get.

Remove mundane items from the game shops. I.E. Weapons and armors of +1 - +4. For an economy to be made the players must be responsible for the sale of them. I think Dark Age of Camelot did this. You could not just go buy anything really that was not at the player store. While I get new players starting out would be left to the wolves a bit but uh.....doesn't this add that certain danger? That this is the Sword Coast where you can and probably will die? Besides in a world with crafting players often can and do gift new players with gear anyway. Hell I know it would be a damn site easier to recruit for guilds and establish them if players NEEDED others.....Guilds would be out recruiting by outfitting people. Making them sign RP contracts of service for being given training, gear and hot meals to survive the coast.

I think no matter what this is a HUGE undertaking so if it is going to be implemented it needs to be right. That means almost every area of the entire server is going to need scripting and changes. This one project alone would be as big as the update right after Luna left and Raseal and others really took over from there. Putting Endelyon and Mac in charge as well. So I would not expect this for at least a year and a half of hard work......Maybe that is optimistic......

[mrm3ntalist]

What is not mentioned on the poll, is that the items that will be crafted, will be of lower power than what you can find in the Epic shops. You wont be able to enchant already enchanted items. You will need to start from zero.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

What is not mentioned on the poll, is that the items that will be crafted, will be of lower power than what you can find in the Epic shops. You wont be able to enchant already enchanted items. You will need to start from zero.

Strongly backed support from me on this.

Crafting should not result in items exceeding any attribute/skill of 3.

[chad878262]

What I would propose is this.

Items with +2EB or AC of their type can have 4 max enchantments on them. IE say a Plate Armor +2 AC 10% fire immunity 3 STR 4 Spot?

Items with +3EB or AC of their type can have 3 max enchantments on them.

Items with +4EB or AC can have 2 max enchantments on them.

sorry Calodan, I can't support this. Divine/Arcane Gish and Paladin can then use the very best crafted gear (then cast GMW) while everyone else basically can't. Also as M3nt/AoS said the idea is not to make crafting the most powerful gear, it is to make it more customizable (i.e. if you use a weapon that is not available in various stores.)

[Rinzler]

If there's no end game purpose to craft items then I think all the work required to making a crafting system would be pointless - no one (or not many) would take advantage of it.

Going by the "crafting level progression" I gave, if someone puts months into "leveling" their ability to 30 - they should be able to craft an item that's superior to the hell shop IMO.