Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Class kit concept is a failure in my opinion. The class kit is basically the same thing as prestige class. The difference is that:
1) Class kits are very inconvinient
2) Class kits are bugged
Plus only few classes have kits

So why don't you turn all the existing class kits into prestige classes?

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: 1) Class kits are very inconvinient
2) Class kits are bugged

Yes, I had some initial troubles with the Cavalier Kit. But if you create a new character and initiate the progression before your second level, then everything should work just fine and dandy. The wiki is still bit unclear how each of these kits works. For example the Hunter Kit, how many extra favored enemies it actually gets if you go full 30 levels Hunter?

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:Plus only few classes have kits

You can suggest new kits.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:So why don't you turn all the existing class kits into prestige classes?

Because not all paladins, rangers, etc are alike. I think it is fine to provide alternatives to base classes, without having the need to create an entire new base class. As for prestige classes, I feel that a kit turned into a PRC would be less strong than the kit. After all getting all the kit perks with just 10 levels would easily slide into the OP region, especially when mixed with different base and prestige classes. However, as kits it is more fine because to get most out of a kit you need to get 10-30 levels of the base class it comes with. Thus a kit comes with fewer balance concerns.

If you encounter a bug make a topic about it, so I can reproduce it and fix it.

Apart from that, kits offer progression in an existing class. Unlike PRC's - which are classes onto themselves. A difference is that with kits you retain progression in the original class feats and uses per day. With PRCs you don't.

Sun Wukong wrote:For example the Hunter Kit, how many extra favored enemies it actually gets if you go full 30 levels Hunter?

Its a 10 level kit. You get 2 extra FEs along with the extra feats on these 10 levels.

Rasael wrote:Apart from that, kits offer progression in an existing class. Unlike PRC's - which are classes onto themselves. A difference is that with kits you retain progression in the original class feats and uses per day. With PRCs you don't.

I don't agree with you. For example, Monk of the Long Death grants you Death knell, resistances to death and other feats, but your flurry of blows development stops (there are also some other blocked monk feats that I don't remember). He also gains access to other skills, so it's basically a prestige class. Stormsinger, for examle, continues gaining the number of Bard music uses per day (just like MotLD keeps gaining Stunning fists uses), but his existing songs don't get any stronger (MotLD flurry of blows development stops), instead he can spend his bardic music uses in offensive spells and also gains resistance to electricity (MotLD gains paralyzing attacks, natural armor, resistances etc). Plus MotLD requires 8 lore ranks, this means you can progress in this class only starting from 6th level (like in most of prestige classess). And finally, MotLD kit has only 10 levels (like most of prestige classes).

As you see, MotLD is a prestige class, like any other class kit. Making it a separate prestige class will make everything better, because:
1) It would fix bugs (when during the kit progression you are losing both kit and basic class feats)
2) It will be much much more convinient (now you can't see how many levels of your monk is basic monk and how many of them is long death monk, plus why should we mess with that inconvinient dialogue mode when we have a normal class selection screen?)
3) It would add some unique new prestige classes and create much more space for character building (now you have really raw unfinished idea of class kits, turning them into prestige classes is the best you can do imho)

chambordini wrote:More work.

There is always more work if you are making new content.

Sun Wukong wrote:Because not all paladins, rangers, etc are alike. I think it is fine to provide alternatives to base classes, without having the need to create an entire new base class.

New prestige class. You can customize your base class anytime with feats / basic stats (DC warlock is not the same thing as melee strength warlock, dual wielding fighter is not the same thing as tower shield fighter and archer fighter etc). Plus many prestige classes are actually alternative developments to base classes and thus resemble class kit concept in your understanding (for example warpriest gains high BAB and bunch of spell like abilites, but he has 5/10 spell progression (and loses his Turn Undead progression in original NWN2)).

More work means that it is more work to implement a base class or PRC than it is to implement a kit. As has been stated they generally do work, but admittedly there have been many hiccups. That said, there are limited resources with limited time and kits allow for more content to get in than if everything was a full new class/PRC.

As to Monk of the Long Death, thanks for the reminder, Wiki needs updated as Kits do not have a different skill list than the base class. Thus MotLD has the same skills as a 'standard' Monk. Also, with 10 levels you can still get Greater Flurry and Adamantine Fists while also having Monk of the Long Death. M16/MotLD10/X4 will essentially have everything a M26/X4 would have. In addition, MotLD was originally built as a PRC, but had issues which continually delayed it's release. I imagine if we were looking to make it a PRC again it might never be released as the PRC was not ready/had bugs.

Kits have/had bugs just like PRC's have/had bugs. When they are reported our dev team is quite responsive in addressing them.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:......

You've misread or misunderstood what I wrote.

NWN2 has a hardcoded limitation on prestige classes: They don't keep progressing feats in their base class, and they don't keep progressing feat uses-per-day in their base class.

The reason kits is exists is to circumvent hardcoded mechanical obstacles. That's a design choice you don't have to agree with. But its a design choice we made. We now have the option of using either a kit or a PRC when making new content.


With Monk of the Long Death the feat progression rate is slowed down but its still there. And you retain full progression in feat uses-per-day for all your monk feats, as if you were a full level monk. With a PRC you wouldn't have either of that.