Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

With the item storage system and pack donkey I was wondering what the staff/player stance on muleing (and twinking by extension) is and if it should be updated.

Wherever possible I choose to play without muleing / twinking. If there is no IC reason, or OOC in the case of RCR etc, then I choose not to do it. I play this way because it’s more fun to find things for my character, and the challenges the game sets are more valid. If I retire a character permanently I am going to delete all of their gear and wealth as well.

Though I would not ban muleing mechanically (as this creates its own endless cycle of problems) I would like to see it at least discouraged. Even if for the single reason that it creates a skewed item economy where powerful items never leave circulation and the rarity and value of these items goes down overtime. Lower level items lose value even more and become ‘worthless’ in the eyes of the players (see the “should +1 items be removed” thread).

Thoughts and opinions?

Your heart is in the right place I think, but what you're essentially asking for is a rule to be created that forces people to play the way that you like to play.
A lot of people wait a long time for that rare loot drop that they can create a character around. They find the uber rare item, make new pc that is able to use that item and then mule it over and enjoy their playtime. Nothing particularly wrong with that i don't think.
The other aspect is also that muling will still happen. It will just be a little more difficult and will also need to be policed, creating more work for DM's and irritation for players.

Muleing is practically impossible to enforce so it's tolerated.

Let's be honest Valefort, that is not the reason why it's tolerated here.

AC81 wrote:Your heart is in the right place I think, but what you're essentially asking for is a rule to be created that forces people to play the way that you like to play.

That goes for every single rule, mechanically enforced or otherwise. A game is per definition a framework of rules set by the game designer to create a desired experience.

When have +1 items ever had value beyond level 8 or so? Stopping muling isn't going to fix that. I've not seen +1 items ever sold in Mudd to any great degree since 2011.

The server is relatively slow to level and slower to generate good items (though it has improved). Being able to mule is a bit like a loyalty program. I see threads pop up continually that's it's frustrating to level, slow to level, boring to level. Taking away muling only makes it more difficult. Plus it's not like you are EVER limited to not mule beyond your own OOC preferences. It's an RP server and you can, likely 95% of the time, come up with a story why you character has items.

With the implementation of the Hell store and others, having high end items not leave circulation is minimized as those items are available everywhere. Sure there are still some that are not accounted for but the majority are and we've seen mass deflation on a few items of note, MFP included.

People have been playing in this sandbox for a long time, i've been here since 2011. There are certain expectations of a PW of this age for how you play in it and the framework that it is made up of. I can tell you with 100% certainty that if I wanted to start a new character, I could get it functionally equipped (+3 minimum) with items gifted from people around me and there would be no muling. I know a lot of people who are in a similar situation. Changes make it very difficult for new players who do not know as many people who have been around as long.

I'm a new player, so please take what I say with a huge grain of salt. I don't know any of you, and I don't know the server's history/norms. I make no claims of superiority, and I respect that this server has its own rules and community.

But I am entirely baffled by the idea that a player will claim to be a roleplayer and get equipment through what is essentially OOC conduct, god-modding, and metagaming (I think muling fits in all three categories in the rules section). The idea seems to contradict the essential nature of...well, roleplay.

That's just me, however!

Metagaming is using knowledge that is not lawfully gained by your character in game.

Godmodding is acting in a fashion in which your character can do anything without limitation and boundaries.

How is a character, starting their story on the PW with more than the clothes on their back and a story to facilitate how they have the items fall into either of these categories?

Dragonslayer wrote:But I am entirely baffled by the idea that a player will claim to be a roleplayer and get equipment through what is essentially OOC conduct, god-modding, and metagaming (I think muling fits in all three categories in the rules section). The idea seems to contradict the essential nature of...well, roleplay.

That's just me, however!

I disagree, IMO it does not make you any less of a "Good Roleplayer" as you put it to get that one item that works for another of your characters. They could in their background claim it as a family heirloom or something, or it was given to them by their mentor etc etc,. There are a multitude of ways around your statement that it breaks those three rulings. So the act may be seen as an OOC exchange etc but the RP around the item if they so deem it does not have to be.

An item does not make the character. It only allows one a better chance vs the PvE and players if the need arises. RP makes the character.

Also welcome to the server!

flipside43 wrote:Metagaming is using knowledge that is not lawfully gained by your character in game.

Godmodding is acting in a fashion in which your character can do anything without limitation and boundaries.

How is a character, starting their story on the PW with more than the clothes on their back and a story to facilitate how they have the items fall into either of these categories?

Sorry! I'm reading the metagaming rules a little too closely, probably, but I'd consider using knowledge of a unique item's stats to make a character 'around' the item, knowing that I'd get the item for free, a little too metagamish. Knowing that a PC can function as a result of an item gained on another character is taking advantage of knowledge gained outside the character.

The godmodding bit would be in reference to making up a story about how you got an item. It didn't actually happen, and it sort of has in-game consequences, namely you getting the item and benefiting from it.

But the real defining characteristic, I'd say, is that in PnP the DM makes rulings on what your character starts with. It'd be like me starting a campaign at level one, and telling the DM that I have a +3 keen vampiric longsword because my family happened to give it to me. There are allowable actions I can take as a roleplaying PC, versus as a DM. Giving myself bonuses outside the boundaries of the ruleset sort of contradicts that.

But again, things may be different here! Just trying to offer my opinion. And thank you for the welcome!

Dragonslayer wrote:Sorry! I'm reading the metagaming rules a little too closely, probably, but I'd consider using knowledge of a unique item's stats to make a character 'around' the item, knowing that I'd get the item, a little too metagamish. Knowing that a PC can function as a result of an item gained on another character is taking advantage of knowledge gained outside the character.

You are talking about a very specific subsection of building. Do you not plan out your builds to level 30? Is it really that different?

Dragonslayer wrote:The godmodding bit would be in reference to making up a story about how you got an item. It didn't actually happen, and it sort of has in-game consequences, namely you getting the item and benefiting from it.

Your character wasn't born in game either or live their adolescence in game but apparently that happened? That's a dangerous rabbit hole.

Dragonslayer wrote:But the real defining characteristic, I'd say, is that in PnP the DM makes rulings on what your character starts with. It'd be like me starting a campaign at level one, and telling the DM that I have a +3 keen vampiric longsword because my family happened to give it to me. There are allowable actions I can take as a roleplaying PC, versus as a DM. Giving myself bonuses outside the boundaries of the ruleset sort of contradicts that.

Think we just came full circle as there is a ruling about what you can start with, and it's that muling is allowed and all of it is permissible. But a friendly reminder this isn't PnP and you don't interact with DMs in the same capacity here as you do there. This may look like a duck but it doesn't act like a duck, so to speak.

Dragonslayer wrote: The godmodding bit would be in reference to making up a story about how you got an item. It didn't actually happen, and it sort of has in-game consequences, namely you getting the item and benefiting from it.

And this could be said to all Bio's that have been made for characters. "It didn't actually happen" so they must be god modding it all.

But the real defining characteristic, I'd say, is that in PnP the DM makes rulings on what your character starts with. It'd be like me starting a campaign at level one, and telling the DM that I have a +3 keen vampiric longsword because my family happened to give it to me. There are allowable actions I can take as a roleplaying PC, versus as a DM. Giving myself bonuses outside the boundaries of the ruleset sort of contradicts that.

But again, things may be different here! Just trying to offer my opinion. And thank you for the welcome!

Understandable as that is how sessions I have played in are normally, though some I have been in they are like you can choose one item so it depends on your DM.

As for the case here there are not enough DMs to go around looking at every characters inventory and asking them "Did you Mule this? Did you get this by "legal" means?" That is just tedious work and honestly an unneeded hassle. I understand your view but that is also your play style. By all means you can start your character how you wish. But that does not make other peoples choice to use that weapon/armor/etc for their character incorrect by any means.

If you want to see what it's like to play with forbidden muling, check out the Sigil server, which is policing it quite effectively. However, that server has a much quicker levelling speed and generates more loot and coin in less time than BGTSCC. Plus, you can rcr more easily and with less xp loss.

As for my own playing style: I enjoy building new, unusual, server-specific, and sometimes item-dependent builds (without cheating) and testing their playability IG, thinking up rp stories that justify their quirks and epic possessions in the process. A ban on muling would certainly discourage my play style.

I could quibble on the bio points (namely the 'unusual background' rule providing similar benefits to unearned items), but it wouldn't provide substantive discussion.

In any case I'm happy to play with the community here, and hope to meet folks in game!

I'm often in the UD so by all means more blood below. But I play surface as well.

ValerieJean wrote:I disagree, IMO it does not make you any less of a "Good Roleplayer" as you put it to get that one item that works for another of your characters.

Not according to the rules, but in fact this is metagaming, unless you can give a good explanation of how your low level weak character has acquired such powerful or even epic items. I think it breaks the immersion more for yourself than for others. Same as the topic starter, I also never mule items unless it is RCR. But even without muling you can easily afford powerful items via auction in a few days or even hours using the gold you earn during adventures.
For example, for 10 000 gold you can afford:
- Weapon EB +3
- Armor AC +3
- Cloak Deflection +3

You can legally earn this gold in one day, and those items increase your low level toon powers dramatically.