Poll: Revert Back to Item Level Restrictions

[Steve]

An attempt to gauge the general desire. Ask your friends to make sure they vote.

As Le Valefort has stated, it IS POSSIBLE to revert back to Item Level Restrictions, though not easy.

[chad878262]

I voted yes, but it is more than just being able to revert without serious bugs or item loss or whatever. It's also the necessity to address bugs that existed when we had restrictions. Really no fun when you have an item that requires character level 63 (or whatever). If the issues can be addressed then I am all for item level restrictions.

[mrm3ntalist]

Nope. It is much better now and there is no balance concern.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

As Le Valefort has stated, it IS POSSIBLE to revert back to Item Level Restrictions, though not easy.

I can unequip a player without them being on the server.

[Dagesh]

I vote no to ILR.

If I understand, the thought is ILR makes lower tiered weapons worth more. In that way players will be more willing to hold on to those things to sell. In this way the new players would be able to find better lower end gear for better prices. It may also level out any differences between newer and older players.
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If removing ILR makes lower tiered weapons worth less then the NPC merchants will have more of them. Buying a +3 item from a NPC merchant is quite affordable for a new player. The +1 and +2 items are even more so and, for me, have always been a leg up to the better stuff. So removing ILR doesn't change the economy by much as players can find most of those things for affordable prices from NPCs.

As for level disparity, I would much rather have someone with better gear in my party than not. It provides survivability. The one difference I see is PvP. That's another can of worms entirely.
--
tl;dr
In the end, it makes RP sense to use any weapon. It allows low level parties to survive better. +1-3 items aren't all that expensive so the economy doesn't take a hit.

[aaron22]

unicorns and fireballs dont make sense either. lets get that excuse out of here.

[Pimple]

unicorns and fireballs dont make sense either. lets get that excuse out of here.

In this setting they do. That's no excuse, that's just the reality we're playing, and that's something you can bring into RP. If level restrictions are or were a thing I think it should have to come with an explanation that is applicable in RP. Otherwise it does more harm than good.

[Theodore01]

Yes, bring back the restrictions.
It really makes the lower areas interesting and dangerous again.

Nothing worse than to party with a fully epic-equipped low level toon, who is bragging about his 40+AC in the hilltop ruins.

Or take any item with spellresistance - that makes a big difference.
That amulet with 28 spell resistance needed a char lv20 before. Now we even have a "cheap" cloak with SR 32.
Any of these items make a (low-mid. level) char. as good as invulnerable from magic. And these items are still useful in epic areas.

Another point is +1 and +2 equipment becomes useful again - as you cannot use incredible cheap +3 stuff from the auction with a young adventurer.
Today all you need is a ~10000 gold and a bit patience to buy a set of +3 gear from Mudd.
That takes away all progress of finding and (more or less) be able to afford better gear during an adventurers career.

[dedude]

Funny how many of the concerns here would be solved by getting rid of muling/twinking

I'm a definite no to adding this stupid OOC construct as a band-aid to the gaping OOC wound that is muling.

[Steve]

I found this:

The usefulness of ILR is two-fold. First, the ostensible use is to prevent players from using items they were not intended to have access to. This is more important on persistent worlds than in other settings, as in other settings, access to items can be more tightly controlled. The second use is for builders, for whom ILR can serve as a guideline when designing items. The Toolset displays the ILR requirement for an item (in the "General" tab of an item's properties, listed as "Required Level"), so a builder can compare this to the intended level of the recipient of the item. If the ILR exceeds the intended level, then the item is too powerful according to the ILR guideline. (On the other hand, if the ILR is less than the intended level, then the item may be appropriate, just not among the few most powerful items a character might possess.) Of course, if ILR is not enabled when the game is played, then ILR is jut a guideline that builders can ignore if they choose. In addition, builders may reject BioWare's version and define their own guideline by modifying itemvalue.2da (which would not need to be distributed with the module if the intent is for the module to be played with ILR off).

Anyway, if anything, the removal of ILR creates a greater unfairness for New Players. Imagine, for a moment, you start on BGTSCC, and you meet up at Lvl 2 of your first toon, even your second toon ever, and you start to adventure up with any Player who has been on BGTSCC for 6+ months or even years, and their Toon, also Lvl 2 but has +4 Gear in all slots and that +4 Scimitar of Undead Bane 1d10 bludgeoning, etc, etc., and, this "veteran" player's Toon is just sailing through all mobs, and even as well, perhaps, all RP with DMs, in that if asked to Roll Play on some NPC interactions, has that Ring of the Wise Mouth +10 Diplomacy, and BOOM!, can easily convince the Evil Knight Willy to take off his Dragon Armor and not slay the little kitten in danger. Ugh. It's like that.

Now, if ILR was turned back on, that total newbie and the Veteran, both on Lvl 2 Toons, would be EQUALLY MATCHED when concerning how drastically Items improve both pure mechanics as well as Roll Play, when it comes to it.

How the puck is that anywhere near fair, huh?!?

When I came on this Server, I was on the tail end of an Era of Extreme Item Favoritism to some Players, and I can easily imagine that if ILR was turned off back then, and those Vets would have been able to down-share that gear to a Lowbie Toon and interact with my pitiful first toon of a Half-Elf Ranger with NOTHING to speak off—and remember folks, this was back in the day when Gear was both hard to come by in Looting, but hardly even existing in NPC merchants for coin...dark, evil days I tell ya!—I would have thought: "Hey what the hellz is wrong here, and why is everyone else Uber Strong and my guy is so pitiful!?!" And they I'd learn that Joe Veteran is down-sharing epic gear cause he has Epic Gear flying out his ears after 7 Years on BGTSCC and I'll never be able to "compete," until I too have Epic Everything, so...

...Result: grind-lootz like a crazy bastard until I can acquire and equal everybody else.

INSTEAD, in the past, the IRL actually brought all Toons down to the same "level," in terms of a great deal of mechanics, and that is a damn good thing.

Make Lowbie Levels great—and equal—again!!!

You can say all you want "Hey Steve, just don't twink yourself!," but you're missing the point, in sheer refusal, which is: you establish the Have and Have Not's paradigm from the Level 1 starting point by removing the IRL.

Also, no one a) said why the IRL was being turned off, b) even asked the Community at large if they wanted it. It was just done. And it is a pity that it was done without even presenting a reason for it.

[mrm3ntalist]

Anyway, if anything, the removal of ILR creates a greater unfairness for New Players. Imagine, for a moment, you start on BGTSCC, and you meet up at Lvl 2 of your first toon, even your second toon ever, and you start to adventure up with any Player who has been on BGTSCC for 6+ months or even years, and their Toon, also Lvl 2 but has +4 Gear in all slots and that +4 Scimitar of Undead Bane 1d10 bludgeoning, etc, etc., and, this "veteran" player's Toon is just sailing through all mobs, and even as well, perhaps, all RP with DMs, in that if asked to Roll Play on some NPC interactions, has that Ring of the Wise Mouth +10 Diplomacy, and BOOM!, can easily convince the Evil Knight Willy to take off his Dragon Armor and not slay the little kitten in danger. Ugh. It's like that.

This was possible even with item level restrictions. Veteran players could run around immune against mobs. There is nothing different in that aspect with or without item level restrictions.

About the dm events, it is funny that you dont mention the whole picture. With the restrictions, there is no way to have any skill rolls near the epics. Without them you can. And there are skill items widely available.

Now, if ILR was turned back on, that total newbie and the Veteran, both on Lvl 2 Toons, would be EQUALLY MATCHED when concerning how drastically Items improve both pure mechanics as well as Roll Play, when it comes to it.

How the puck is that anywhere near fair, huh?!?

They wont. The veteran would still equip the highest items for that level. The veteran will have the gold to buy all the potions needed. The veteran would be able to buy the low level items at inflated priced. The new player would not.

Now a new player has the chance to buy those said items, at much lower prices. Look at the auction prices. With what we can see now in game, not just theories, it is much more easier now for new players to get items, so it is much more fair now that it was before.

When I came on this Server, I was on the tail end of an Era of Extreme Item Favoritism to some Players, and I can easily imagine that if ILR was turned off back then, and those Vets would have been able to down-share that gear to a Lowbie Toon and interact with my pitiful first toon of a Half-Elf Ranger with NOTHING to speak off—and remember folks, this was back in the day when Gear was both hard to come by in Looting, but hardly even existing in NPC merchants for coin...dark, evil days I tell ya!—I would have thought: "Hey what the hellz is wrong here, and why is everyone else Uber Strong and my guy is so pitiful!?!" And they I'd learn that Joe Veteran is down-sharing epic gear cause he has Epic Gear flying out his ears after 7 Years on BGTSCC and I'll never be able to "compete," until I too have Epic Everything, so...

...Result: grind-lootz like a crazy bastard until I can acquire and equal everybody else.

INSTEAD, in the past, the IRL actually brought all Toons down to the same "level," in terms of a great deal of mechanics, and that is a damn good thing.

Make Lowbie Levels great—and equal—again!!!

You can say all you want "Hey Steve, just don't twink yourself!," but you're missing the point, in sheer refusal, which is: you establish the Have and Have Not's paradigm from the Level 1 starting point by removing the IRL.

Also, no one a) said why the IRL was being turned off, b) even asked the Community at large if they wanted it. It was just done. And it is a pity that it was done without even presenting a reason for it.

Thats your personal experience. The facts on the other side are different.

Now, with the removal of restrictions, new players can get better items, cheaper and faster than before, bringing them closer to the Veteran players and their epic characters.

[Valefort]

Facts also are +1 and +2 items are scarcely used and low level mobs are being flattened as they were designed with the ILR in mind. The radical solution is to remove muleing, as unlikely to happen as it is.

[mrm3ntalist]

Facts also are +1 and +2 items are scarcely used and low level mobs are being flattened as they were designed with the ILR in mind. The radical solution is to remove muleing, as unlikely to happen as it is.

Up to what level the +1 and +2 are used? What is the window of usage for these items? Levels 1-4?

[Steve]

The facts on the other side are different.

I guess that means the facts you are arguing, which was the "system" already sucked but removing the ILR made it even worse!!! Lol.

There are no facts here, honestly, if that is the way you want to go about it. If we talk about a "Fact" that high level gear once IMPOSSIBLE to use on a Lowbie Toon is now "affordable," and that thus makes lowbies and Epics closer together, is a "good" thing, then you are actually mixing facts with your own personal opinion, and I guess preference.

Because the "fact" is that a Lowbie Toon, no matter what level of Gear, can never be objectively "closer" to epic Toons, in power. No way.

What removing IRL did was allow veteran players twink up Lowbie Toons, thus DRASTICALLY unbalancing the newbie to the oldie Player. Literally, unbalanced, thus not to far to say unfair.

The thing is M3nt, you promote the Lootz-Grindz system of gaming, which as you often do, state is the best way to achieve Epicness in gear. But that system is not even meaningful to Lowbie Toons or Newbie Players...they are literally trying to "figure out" how the Server works, and removing the IRL literally shows them that how it works is to utilize Epic Gear at low levels to, as Le Valefort correctly stated: "...low level mobs are being flattened."

If Epic Items create a paradigm where Lowbie Toons are now SERIOUSLY OVERPOWERED from 1–10 on BGTSCC, maybe what makes sense is to just remove those Areas from the Server, and have all PCs come in created at Level 11.

That seems more inline with your thinking, as I interpret it.

[Valefort]

There's no easy answer there as Obsidian tied the ILR to the gold values of an item (both the total value and the most expensive itemproperty value) so I'll just give examples (I don't know how the value of an item is computed).

You can start using a +1 weapon at level 3, +2 at level 7, +3 at 10, +4 at 12.

Natural amulets, dodge boots, armors, shields :

+2 AC : level 5
+3 AC : level 7
+4 AC : level 9

Deflection AC :

+1 AC : level 2
+2 AC : level 5
+3 AC : level 8
+4 AC : level 10