survival, cleaning and cooking

[NeOmega]

the crafting suggestion thread steered off a bit to cleaning and cooking animals. I love the feature, but i dont like wizards gutting dogs for meat.

so, i will lay out my ideas for the most complex system, and maybe let devs pick their simplicity.

skill check survival would determine how long it takes to clean an animal. (35 - survival +d20) seconds. this would discourage those who only have 1 or 2 ranks in survival, or those whose only survival comes from their wis bonus. This would be like opening locks, traps, etc, where you can take 20 if no enemies are near. Those with low or no survival could still collect the meat, but would tend to do so only if necessary.

skill or alchemy would determine cook time per batch, and result: (5 - survival or craft alchemy) seconds. The results would be lessor vigor, lesser vigor 15, vigor, vigor 15, vigorous cycle, or vigorous cycle 15, based on skill checks, of course.

a race-check would be nice too, so orcs and half orcs could collect meat from anything living.

[aaron22]

a race-check would be nice too, so orcs and half orcs could collect meat from anything living.

im gonna take that as orc-love. i love you too

[Valefort]

I see no reason to make very high DC checks sorry, these are mundane tasks.

[NeOmega]

I see no reason to make very high DC checks sorry, these are mundane tasks.

finding good meat on an animal you just hacked, slashed poisoned and then burned to death is not exactly a mundane task.

also, cities wouldnt have butcheries if carving an animal up is a mundane task.

[Hoihe]

Keep in mind that NPC hunters do these tasks daily.

NPC hunters who will reach at most level 2 in some NPC class.

Getting maximum 5 ranks in a skill, with maybe a bonus boosting it to 6 or 7.

Ridiculous DCs for mundane tasks are immersion breaking.

If an adventurer, someone who is the upper 1% of their profession, struggles to complete a mundane task related to said profession - then how the hell does anyone live and not starve to death?

Anything that requires a DC higher than 20 should be an exceptional challenge that happens only if you are pushing your limits. DCs above 30 should be limited to tasks that are not needed for the common man or even soldier to go by their day to day affairs. DCs above 40 should be relegated to heroic acts.

So.. a DC 35 to get some meat from an animal. No hunter NPC will ever pass that with his 4-7 ranks in survival. Not even with take 20.

[NeOmega]

Keep in mind that NPC hunters do these tasks daily.

NPC hunters who will reach at most level 2 in some NPC class.

Getting maximum 5 ranks in a skill, with maybe a bonus boosting it to 6 or 7.

Ridiculous DCs for mundane tasks are immersion breaking.

If an adventurer, someone who is the upper 1% of their profession, struggles to complete a mundane task related to said profession - then how the hell does anyone live and not starve to death?

Anything that requires a DC higher than 20 should be an exceptional challenge that happens only if you are pushing your limits. DCs above 30 should be limited to tasks that are not needed for the common man or even soldier to go by their day to day affairs. DCs above 40 should be relegated to heroic acts.

So.. a DC 35 to get some meat from an animal. No hunter NPC will ever pass that with his 4-7 ranks in survival. Not even with take 20.

so both of you did not read the proposal. This is always frustrating, as i hate defending ideas i never made.

the DC determines HOW LONG the extraction process takes.

so AN EXPERT does it QUICKLY, but a novice takes time.

anybody can do anything, given the time and tools.
of course wizards never forget their paring and skinning knives, wax wrap, salts, etc, to make sure the meat doesnt spoil before its cooked, like all the other little tools they bring along for very other "mundane" task.

have either of you worked in a skilled trade? have either of you spent weeks in the wilderness? have either of you spent weeks in the wilderness while practicing your skilled trade? of course not. you either have the tools and xpertise, or you dont. and then carrying around your work bench? ridiculous. wizards shouldnt be collecting dog meat. period. it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at something. I recently have achieved this, and oft my customers underestimate what it takes. i make it look easy and "mundane", but the trick is not knowing what to do when everything goes right. its knowing what to do when something isnt right. and once you are a master, and yeaching others, you realize about 25 - 50% of the time, there are challenges you glaze over, you dont even consider them challenges anymore, but seeing the newb struggle reminds you of everything you learned in your 10,000 hours.

so please dont tell me a learned wizard also is somehow an expert at survival and skinning and dressing battle scarred animals... ...when a wizard probably wouldnt even consider bringing the tools nevessary to do so, much less take the time to learn how.

and animals, dire animals etc, killed in magical battles, have a higher chance of presenting challenges. I know a guy who charges $100 an hour to butcher. and thats his moonlight job. professionals charge more.

[DM LeviOsa]

It takes about a half a second to do it as it is currently. I don't see a need to add a timer on the task at hand. It can be assumed just as eating, sleeping, drinking, and using the restroom can be for the task taking awhile. If you want to RP it taking XYZ time by all means no one is saying don't but not everyone wants to do that, some just like 'cooking' it and going on there way.

So the idea is understandable to add more 'immersion'. But we have ppl who play here who may not RP as much as another. Some just like the hack and slash aspect and just because some of us like to RP does not mean we should force them to do so, as this server is not tagged as a heavy RP Server.


By the by this is me speaking as a player not as a DM, I would colorize that!

[Valefort]

I think in the context of Faerûn hunting and skinning an animal are very widespread skills, every farmer can do it and they form the overwhelming majority of the population. I'd say you would need a reason to not know these skills enough to get some meat ; such as living in a city your whole life or being from a rich family and uninterested in any of those fields (in which case you shouldn't have the silly idea of RPing being able to do it just because mechanically it works ..).

I'll readily admit that with a better survival you should be able to get more meat in a better state (up to a certain point), as well as faster but the time needed is for you to RP as you see fit as even a druid with 60 survival won't do these tasks instantly.

Perhaps I'll add some public flavor text denoting your eventual ineptitude in the field when you do it, like "Player name hacked away some meat but not without getting soaked in blood and gore." which might stop some scrawny wizards from doing it in public

[NeOmega]

force

there is that word again....

nobody is going to "force" a wizard to spend 15 seconds to collect bat meat.

the idea is to make the collection of collecting meat in the wild something those who are survival types will engage in, whilst those who are not will not think it is worth 15 seconds of game time to get a potion of lesser vigor. so a wizard will simply step over the dead bat, but a ranger will collect some meat, and eave the bones, head and wings on the ground, because the fanger eventually can do so in 1 second. (level 11, with 14 points in survival' natural 20 roll) with some basic gear focused on survival, a ranger would be done in one second at even earlier levels, maybe even level 2 or 3

if a wizard wants to spend 20 - 30 seconds getting that meat, nobody is "forcing" him to. if a wizard wants to lug around survival gear because he wants to skin animals too, nobody is stopping him. if he doesn't want to invest in survival, or carry gear that grants it, but still wants the meat, but has to take 15 seconds.. .. still hardly see that as "forcing" him to do it.

jesus, if you dont want me to rant, dont bring in hyperbole, like "force", and dont jump on the proposal without even reading it first!

[NeOmega]

I think in the context of Faerûn hunting and skinning an animal are very widespread skills, every farmer can do it and they form the overwhelming majority of the population.

1. farmers do so to docile animals, in a controlled environment, with all necessary tools available, and the animal is not fighting back, therefore, it is not getting damaged all over

2. how many characters are taking farmer as a background feat?

3. how many farmers know what to bring on a hunting trip? how many farmers actually ever even went hunting? (hint, not many, hunting did not become a past time beyond the nobility until firearms became cheap and prevalent) much less hunting with their own gear?

[Hoihe]

Keep in mind that NPC hunters do these tasks daily.

NPC hunters who will reach at most level 2 in some NPC class.

Getting maximum 5 ranks in a skill, with maybe a bonus boosting it to 6 or 7.

Ridiculous DCs for mundane tasks are immersion breaking.

If an adventurer, someone who is the upper 1% of their profession, struggles to complete a mundane task related to said profession - then how the hell does anyone live and not starve to death?

Anything that requires a DC higher than 20 should be an exceptional challenge that happens only if you are pushing your limits. DCs above 30 should be limited to tasks that are not needed for the common man or even soldier to go by their day to day affairs. DCs above 40 should be relegated to heroic acts.

So.. a DC 35 to get some meat from an animal. No hunter NPC will ever pass that with his 4-7 ranks in survival. Not even with take 20.

so both of you did not read the proposal. This is always frustrating, as i hate defending ideas i never made.

the DC determines HOW LONG the extraction process takes.

so AN EXPERT does it QUICKLY, but a novice takes time.

anybody can do anything, given the time and tools.
of course wizards never forget their paring and skinning knives, wax wrap, salts, etc, to make sure the meat doesnt spoil before its cooked, like all the other little tools they bring along for very other "mundane" task.

have either of you worked in a skilled trade? have either of you spent weeks in the wilderness? have either of you spent weeks in the wilderness while practicing your skilled trade? of course not. you either have the tools and xpertise, or you dont. and then carrying around your work bench? ridiculous. wizards shouldnt be collecting dog meat. period. it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at something. I recently have achieved this, and oft my customers underestimate what it takes. i make it look easy and "mundane", but the trick is not knowing what to do when everything goes right. its knowing what to do when something isnt right. and once you are a master, and yeaching others, you realize about 25 - 50% of the time, there are challenges you glaze over, you dont even consider them challenges anymore, but seeing the newb struggle reminds you of everything you learned in your 10,000 hours.

so please dont tell me a learned wizard also is somehow an expert at survival and skinning and dressing battle scarred animals... ...when a wizard probably wouldnt even consider bringing the tools nevessary to do so, much less take the time to learn how.

and animals, dire animals etc, killed in magical battles, have a higher chance of presenting challenges. I know a guy who charges $100 an hour to butcher. and thats his moonlight job. professionals charge more.

I'm a chemist. My laboratory head probably has a modified score of 7-8 in his profession (synthethic chemistry). He does everything casually and easily and without effort. I probably have 1-2, and spend time deliberating how to proceed and refer to manuals to avoid mistakes.

Even if you use it as a function of time rather than DC, your wording went "discourage those who only have 1 or 2 ranks in survival."

Having a single rank in a skill means you went through the effort to understand it and are trained to perform it under duress. Having 4 ranks indicates you spent a very long time at it, or are specially talented and learn faster than others (since you maximized the amount of ranks you can achieve at level 1, and most commoners get to 2/3 by old age).

A person with 1 rank in a skill is not a fool. They are no master by any measure, but maybe below average in profession, and above average outside the profession (after all, they took the time to hone that skill).



Also, our characters are adventurers. They spend 50-200 miles away from any sign of civillization for tendays at a time. If they got past level 2, they know some basic survival through experience.

Your wizard example is flawed. Sure, a city mage will have trouble. But someone who trudges through mud and grime and fire and ice, spends forever out in the wilds hunting those rare ingredients for a spell will know how to survival, and will be well equipped.

[DM LeviOsa]

I read that you wished to add a timer to it because of certain "Class" or "Race" etc who should be 'better' at it should be 'quicker' at it. You suggested time mostly and I informed that is it just adding tedium to the act. When all of that can be handled strictly by RP and does not need the mechanic factor behind it.

There may be a Wizard who has Survival for XYZ background reason. Why would being a wizard hinder them in the task if they have the skill for it?

In essence you are 'forcing' as you want to add this mechanic of a skill check and timer upon the OnClick() action of the bat/rat/boar/wolf/etc and then wish to add on the item of survival gear when most of the items for mundane tasks are just assumed to have. If you are an adventurer as another person posted these simple tasks should be expected or you have far less to worry about than monsters/bandits/whatever enemy wise. You have the food and all that which is bringing far more realism in the Game to than is required, as some don't wish for that avenue of RP. Too much can deter people and we do not want that.

PnP least with my group in the past we would of course buy the items etc and say hey I'm eating this or drinking to the DM and such was moved on.

I would agree that collecting an amount of meat would be better with more survival points vs a time reducer as Valefort even mentioned

Hidden: show

I think in the context of Faerûn hunting and skinning an animal are very widespread skills, every farmer can do it and they form the overwhelming majority of the population. I'd say you would need a reason to not know these skills enough to get some meat ; such as living in a city your whole life or being from a rich family and uninterested in any of those fields (in which case you shouldn't have the silly idea of RPing being able to do it just because mechanically it works ..).

I'll readily admit that with a better survival you should be able to get more meat in a better state (up to a certain point), as well as faster but the time needed is for you to RP as you see fit as even a druid with 60 survival won't do these tasks instantly.

Perhaps I'll add some public flavor text denoting your eventual ineptitude in the field when you do it, like "Player name hacked away some meat but not without getting soaked in blood and gore." which might stop some scrawny wizards from doing it in public

Hopefully I am not too all over the place in my response and that it is clean, currently at work!

[NeOmega]

funnily, as i was writing the last post, somebody came into my shop, and asked me to use my tools, because, "she can fix it herself, she just needs the tools".

[Hoihe]

I think in the context of Faerûn hunting and skinning an animal are very widespread skills, every farmer can do it and they form the overwhelming majority of the population. I'd say you would need a reason to not know these skills enough to get some meat ; such as living in a city your whole life or being from a rich family and uninterested in any of those fields (in which case you shouldn't have the silly idea of RPing being able to do it just because mechanically it works ..).

I'll readily admit that with a better survival you should be able to get more meat in a better state (up to a certain point), as well as faster but the time needed is for you to RP as you see fit as even a druid with 60 survival won't do these tasks instantly.

Perhaps I'll add some public flavor text denoting your eventual ineptitude in the field when you do it, like "Player name hacked away some meat but not without getting soaked in blood and gore." which might stop some scrawny wizards from doing it in public

Just keep the flavor texts realistic in their cut off points. Pretty much 90+% people have Survival mod below 10. If it's higher, they're either someone who was doing it a very long time, someone important (adventurer or plot NPC) or have bonuses for some weird reason.

I don't want another DC increases constantly beyond the point of possibility for NPCs to succeed to step over a bunch of rails while walking.

[NeOmega]

There may be a Wizard who has Survival for XYZ background reason. Why would being a wizard hinder them in the task if they have the skill for it?

it wouldnt. if a wizard had survival skills in his background, he would take survival skill points to denote that. seriously, you are a dm, and you would approve a player saying, well, my wizard was raised by hunter orcs, so he knows how to dress, clean and store a dead animal... ...oh, he has the tools with him too....

In essence you are 'forcing' as you want to add this mechanic of a skill check and timer upon the OnClick() action of the bat/rat/boar/wolf/etc

no, forcing would mean they have to try to clean and dress the boar after they kill it. if i wanted to "force" them to, it would mean, immediately upon death of the animal, the character would emote getting on his knees, a pop up would appear, and say, "it will take you 14 seconds to dress and clean the boar" then, the player would not be able to move, as his character cleaned and dressed the carcass for 14 seconds. THAT IS forcing them. so please, drop the whole "force" charade. you are only using the term to make it look like i am proposing something in dishonesty, and i do not appreciate it. it is not "forcing" in any any, essence or otherwise. so debate the merits of the idea, or don't debate at all.

and then wish to add on the item of survival gear when most of the items for mundane tasks......

its only mundane if you have domesticated animals, a cooling room, the necessary ingredients, a hanging rack, a smoker, a familiar environment without ravens and wolves and bears smelling the kill, etc.

PnP least with my group in the past we would of course buy the items etc and say hey I'm eating this or drinking to the DM and such was moved on.

truly anybody can walk into store, buy food and eat it. not everybody can skin and dress a dead animal they just fought, bleed it, and store the meat properly before it spoils.

I would agree that collecting an amount of meat would be better with more survival points vs a time reducer as Valefort even mentioned

too many animals. one hunt could lead to a ranger with 60 or more meats.

I'll readily admit that with a better survival you should be able to get more meat in a better state (up to a certain point), as well as faster but the time needed is for you to RP as you see fit as even a druid with 60 survival won't do these tasks instantly.

it would be done in one second. because rest takes 5 seconds.
thats why i propsed dc 35 with an autoroll of 20 if not in battle. just a little investment in survival and/or some survival gear would mean it would be done in 1 second. to represent being able to do so in 15 minutes to an hour, like an expert with the proper tools and experience would do, as compared to the 5 or 6 hour task it would take a true blue novice to do it.