Vampiric Regeneration Redux!

[Steve]

Okay, this is some serious Necrothreadmancy of sorts, and continuing on from the discussion found here now locked, I had some thoughts on this Vampiric Regeneration thing, and how that may affect a Paladin or anyone using it.

As I've experienced from using it, and something that occurred to me yesterday, is that when a weapon has vampiric regeneration, the NAME implies the aspect of vampirism or the vampire, which is an undead animated being that "feeding on the life essence (generally in the form of blood) of the living. "

But here is the thing: a vampiric regeneration imbued weapon actually does not suck or leech any "energy" or specifically (blood) from whatever it hits! The weapon simply "gives" energy, in the form of Hit Points, to the attacker.

Let me repeat: Vampiric Regeneration does not remove extra HP from the opponent, like any/all other Damage enchantments. So the question then is: where does this "vampiric" regeneration come from, actually?

From a physics stand point, it would be likely that the energy expended in the attack is somehow magically returned to the attacker. Especially if we speak about Hit Points as the sum total of your ability to do anything before you collapse, and not some meter of energy/efficiency potential. You might remember this unresolved conversation.... lol.

Anyway, there are many points made about how vampiric is not actually Evil, and thus...a Paladin may use it without falling. Especially since, and literally, the enchantment is not doing ANY extra harm to his opponent, only benefiting her in her crusade.

Right...right?!?

[Endelyon]

Well I dunno how much my opinion is worth here but I certainly don't see any problem with a Paladin using it.

[Steve]

Well I dunno how much my opinion is worth here but I certainly don't see any problem with a Paladin using it.

BLASPHEMY!!!

Haha...I just needed to get that out.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The utility is obvious, you're intending to destroy something by any means possible, but the slippery slope is what that any means is.

[Steve]

And of course what anything is! Because, vampiric would suppose taking life energy—read: blood in the strict interpretation—but when, say, considering a Paladin or any attacker, really...how can you take either blood or "life" energy from the Undead?!? And THAT, well...that's what a Paladin is all about, right?!?

But you had to bring up slippery slope....!

[aaron22]

this is broken physics of Dungeons and dragons. this goes with the what is a heal to living that harms undead. and a harm to the living that heals undead. this energy that works in two polars and nothing in between.

occum's razor is probably the best approach to use in these quandaries. its a devise that converts negative to positive or positive to positive energy. and nothing in between.

[ZestyDragon]

So vampiric regeneration is a custom nwn2 enchantment, it is made from the 2e vampiric ring of regeneration which was a special veneration of the ring of regeneration. That would return half the damage you do in melee as HP.

In 2e the ring was necromancy but well all healing was so that offers little help. However if you go back to the old raven loft modules one of the children of anhktepot is nice enough to provide the party with one such ring. In this section the ring is explained to gain its healing propriety as it feeds of the act of physical violence, the bloodier the better.

Now none of this is inherently evil as even paladins wage bloody wars in the name of their god. So your not going to fall from simply using the item unless a DM decides other wise. However should you use it is another question entirely. Does your god and church believe on empowering your self through the suffering of others?. Maybe if its just for evil monsters?. Really it comes down to what type of paladin you are and how you use it. Thus really its more of a personal choice that will differ from character to character.

[Tekill]

But here is the thing: a vampiric regeneration imbued weapon actually does not suck or leech any "energy" or specifically (blood) from whatever it hits! The weapon simply "gives" energy, in the form of Hit Points, to the attacker.

I had a paladin that refused to use a nice Vamp Regan weapon. So this interests me. Although, I did not bother reading the combined 8 pages of forum posts referenced and so I may risk going over stuff already discussed.

Do you get the regen when you do not go through DR such as say stone skin?
Do you need to inflict actual injury when contact is made?
-This will reflect the nature of the weapon. Maybe vampiric part of the weapon requires suffering, injury, pain or as you say, blood?

Then again, you could argue that it is simply the momentum and kinetic energy from the impact that is being transferred into healing energy. In that case it could be positive energy, simply created from a burst of kinetic energy, created from the impact.
It would be odd though that the ratio of how much healing you get does not reflect how much exertion or momentum was used in the swing. That's magic for ya.

Clearly though, a vamp regen weapon does not work if I attack a tree or a chair with it. It only works when I strike with intent to harm a being. It does not add additional vampiric damage but it does replenish health when contact is made.

So basically even if it is just the simple conversion of kinetic energy into positive healing energy, it still requires a violent attack with the intention to cause harm to a living/unliving/animated being. My paladin decided it would be immoral to receive an immediate benefit from such a dire action. There should be no rewards, other than the destruction of evil, when using violence.

[Steve]

Well crap! The whole non-energy-transference-on-hitting-inanimate-objects point pretty much counters my assumption. Foiled!

It is also interesting to note that vamp regen isn't a part of 3.5e rules, as I've seen noted around (though maybe in Book of Vile Deeds??). In 3.5e there are Ability Drain enchantments...and many of those are EVIL!!

Still though, the arguement falls between IC and OOC understandings, because the mechanics based on dice, like 1d4 and such, are not really a "By Helm's blessing I slayed the Lich by massive criting for 1d12 damage!" Lol. And...aren't Lichs immune to Crits anyway?!?

Is it even possible to RP that a Character actually is not aware or the benefit they receive from vamp regen, or at least, could misconstrue that power gain? Especially considering how Hit Points are interpretable as capability versus actual wounds.

[ZestyDragon]

Well i mean its all about the role play, 1 - 2 HP a hit ain't that noticeable. A paladin with a low spellcraft or lore might have no clue as the cause. "Oh my i get a slight tingle sensation when i hit this evil fellow. Helm must be blessing me with his magic wand." *Smack smack smack*.

[aaron22]

im not really feeling much of this. vampiric weapon should be as evil as vampiric touch. its not kinetic because you cannot just hit a log or swing hard through air. it steals whatever the life force is and transfers into beneficial energy that the user takes no matter what.

that is why i brought up occums razor. to me it feels evil. i dont play a pali, but i would consider not using a vamp weapon if i did.

[SunieWitch]

im not really feeling much of this. vampiric weapon should be as evil as vampiric touch. its not kinetic because you cannot just hit a log or swing hard through air. it steals whatever the life force is and transfers into beneficial energy that the user takes no matter what.

that is why i brought up occums razor. to me it feels evil. i dont play a pali, but i would consider not using a vamp weapon if i did.

Vampiric Touch isn't evil.

Also, compare it to the druid spell Healing Sting. It's basically the same effect. I don't see why a good aligned person shouldn't use it. A paladin is maaaaaybe on the edge with it, but it shouldn't be against the code, I think.

What if the effect was called healing sting instead of vampiric?

[aaron22]

healing sting is almost the same thing as vamp touch just a few numbers here or there. they are just names. both are necromancy and the heal, CLW and such are conjurations. so perhaps we should be asking why healing sting isnt considered evil as much as vamp touch is.

[Ariella]

Vamp touch is not evil. Evil spells have an evil descriptor.

[SunieWitch]

healing sting is almost the same thing as vamp touch just a few numbers here or there. they are just names. both are necromancy and the heal, CLW and such are conjurations. so perhaps we should be asking why healing sting isnt considered evil as much as vamp touch is.

DM Mouse explained on page 4, referenced by Steve in the first post here, that Vampiric Touch in term of game rules as to why the spell/effect is not evil.