Sorcerers Skills

[Lyna]

Sorcerer has always seemed like the weakest caster class to me. Less spells then a favored soul or spirit shaman, less synergy or feats then a wizard. And no special abilities at all unlike every other spell caster. But up until recently i never noticed how bad their skill points are, 2 + int and only one cha skill?. Now i know from a rp perspective they are not as studied as a wizard, but what the hell do they spend their time on? Three lore skills and lying?. They dont need to study their magic you'd think that would mean they do something else with their time. Anyway my suggestion is an increase to skill points and or skill options. Maybe a few cha based skills other the bluff.

[chad878262]

Rogue's get lots of skill points, but they're the weakest combat class. They have crap Fort/Will saves making them pretty much useless against any caster boss and the mobs and bosses on the server have arbitrary DR and in some cases immunity to crits or stat drain making many of their abilities as glass cannons/strikers nerfed.

Fighters can hit stuff, but they can't buff and thus suffer against caster bosses. Plus they have to generally pick between insane damage or enough AC to last and they don't get many skill points either.

Point being that Sorcerer's may be weaker than Wizards, but they are still up in Tier 1 territory when it comes to class power structure. They get more spells per day than wizards and can make far better blasters, while still being adequate DC Casters. A well built Sorcerer specializing in the same school as a well built wizard might have 1 or 2 less DC than the Wizard, 3 at most... However, they still get one extra spell over a specialist wizard at each spell level while not losing the spells from an entire school.

Not to mention you're only going to look at taking 6 levels of Sorcerer anyway, so best to look at the skill points and abilities from the PRCs rather than base Sorc.

S6/SA10/BM8/AM6 for example has CL38 for Necromancy, Enchantment and Illusion Spells as well as +2 DC to those schools. While a Wizard SA focused on 2 of the three could have a similar build and likely squeeze an extra point or two of DC, the Sorcerer has the benefit of simply taking the best save or X spell at any level for those three schools, giving them a lot of flexibility. Dealing with Undead? Undead to Death. Mind Immunity? Wail of the Banshee. Death Ward? Weird. High Fortitude Saves? Mass Hold Monster.

Point being Sorcerer is not a weak class and doesn't need help. Yes the above is an extreme example, but Dragon Disciple is another option and Arcane Scholar makes the best evocation specialist there is when combined with Frost Mage or Archmage with the right spell choices and AM abilities.

[Lyna]

Tier 1? Maybe if only combat ability is considered and the spells you have chosen are solely for that purpose. Getting only 6 - 3 spells per level does force you to pick between rp useful and combat useful.

You know i level with a rouge who does 60 - 80 a hit on things that are sneak attack immune.. I am not sure id really ever consider him "nerfed". I don't like comparing classes like fighters and rouges with mages. They are designed to fill entirely different roles.

That's a rather silly example.. If the server is designed with only those power builds as a determining factor then no wonder i do no damage to bosses. Besides i could compare the DC build to a FB/WM or a Ranger/Assassin with many shot. Everything in extreme sounds op.

Fact is i am not suggesting Sorcerers best wizards or favored souls in a power off. Nor am i suggesting they get the skill points of a rouge with the same skill options. I was more thinking along the lines of 4/3 + int and diplomacy, intimidate and maybe disguise as skills. Though really i think simply having diplomacy and intimidate as skills would be a decent quality of life change.

[chad878262]

Tier 1? Maybe if only combat ability is considered and the spells you have chosen are solely for that purpose. Getting only 6 - 3 spells per level does force you to pick between rp useful and combat useful.

Yep, tiers are based on what one can do in PvE and PvP... However, I would point out that Sorcerer still has plenty of room to grab some RP/DM event type spells while still being immune to nearly everything and having plenty of offensive potential. No need to pick between RP and Combat useful, a well thought out spell selection can have both to some extent. No they can't have EVERY RP spell available, but enough to have some interesting capabilities in DM Events.

You know i level with a rouge who does 60 - 80 a hit on things that are sneak attack immune.. I am not sure id really ever consider him "nerfed". I don't like comparing classes like fighters and rouges with mages. They are designed to fill entirely different roles.

So then you understood where I was going. I don't think Rogues or Fighters are weak either (and I primarily play one of each), but some folks still do even after the improvements made to them. Same can be said for every class (except FvS and Bard, but occasionally even those classes receive a request to improve something...go figure)

That's a rather silly example.. If the server is designed with only those power builds as a determining factor then no wonder i do no damage to bosses. Besides i could compare the DC build to a FB/WM or a Ranger/Assassin with many shot. Everything in extreme sounds op.

Well, each DM is going to design their events differently, but I think it is fairly obvious that PvE is designed around what various classes and class combinations can do. All, except a couple bosses can be solo'd by many different builds if the player understands what they are doing and is willing to pay the expense required in some cases. In the case of a few classes they can solo all, but the White with no expendables. Certainly powerbuilds are not required, especially if you are with a party. However, when considering improvements to a class you have to consider what CAN be done (because if it's possible, some players will do it.)

Fact is i am not suggesting Sorcerers best wizards or favored souls in a power off. Nor am i suggesting they get the skill points of a rouge with the same skill options. I was more thinking along the lines of 4/3 + int and diplomacy, intimidate and maybe disguise as skills. Though really i think simply having diplomacy and intimidate as skills would be a decent quality of life change.

In this case, that extra 1 (or 2) skill points per level could be +1 AC from cross-classing tumble or becoming better at disguise than the Master of Disguises PRC for example. Is that game breaking? No, but does it take away from other classes that focus on those things, I would say it more than likely would and such things should be considered when looking at improvements to an already very strong class.


All of this said, your minimum request (opening Diplomacy / Intimidate as class skills) sounds reasonable, though Disguise I feel should be left out personally. None of this should be taken as a final decision though, I do not speak for all of QC, much less the Dev or Admin team. All just my personal opinion, so please keep theory crafting and it's possible something will be changed to your liking.

[Lockonnow]

well you can just add more int in youre sorcerer then you will gte more skills point

[MrPsion]

Some more CHA skills in class would be nice.

[Hawke]

Here is where WoTC kind of messed up with Sorcerers...

If magic comes to them naturally. And they don't have to study study study (like wizards), then what do they do in all that free time they have? Would that not equate into skill points or something else?

*shrugs* Just stirring the pot I suppose, but something that has had me wonder at times.

Favored Souls and Shamans do receive other "bonuses" like the ability to wear armor, higher BAB , etc.

So, one just has to ask... where is the common sense?

[Blackman D]

Now i know from a rp perspective they are not as studied as a wizard, but what the hell do they spend their time on?

they are highly charismatic so they tend to be highly social, or anti social because they learn through experimentation with spells

either way because there is no true spontaneous casting there is no mechanical advantage of being a sorcerer which is what they are missing that makes them seem weak and non versatile, because without it they really are

that said, CHA social skills would make plenty sense to be class skills for sorcs

[izzul]

When i play the campaign NWN2, i always bring Qara the sorceror. her blasting fiery spells is the best compared to Sand the wizard since she can focus specifically for Charisma, and have almost more spells at the end of the day compared to Sand.(buffing team mates and blasting)

She also has the attitude(Nobility, snobbish, daughter of a famous Mage, ignorant, and confident) and her comments keep me laughing all day.

"these academy living can-trip sod can read all the books they want, but they can never cast fire like what i can. they need years to learn what im capable in weeks."

Charismatic person seems to radiate power and attract people even when their attitude is kinda wonky.(she is powerful and funny at the same time)

When combined with the Main character of the game, Qara is considered very hard to be killed. The way i see it,
-Sorceror is powerful when combined with team mates because at the end of the day, they have more spells for long term adventuring while wizards needs to rest more often.
-the skills they lack can somewhat be multiclassed with few PRC out there.

[Archaos]

I'd also give them Diplomacy, Intimidate and Use Magic Device, as well as 4 + INT skills per level.
They don't spend as much time studying so they pick up other skills.

If anything, it makes the most sense for an extremely charismatic person like a Sorcerer, to be naturally talented in diplomacy or intimidation.
Bluffing doesn't seem very fitting. Why would a very charismatic mage be better at lying and bluffing, instead of being persuasive or imposing?

A Sorcerer is by design and nature so incredibly charismatic and magnetic, that you'd think that they're the types that could seduce or enchant the other person with their words (Diplomacy).
Or make them terrified and awe at their amazing powers and commanding presence (Intimidation).
Bluffing is a roguish skill. Not a charismatic mage's one.

And yes, Use Magic Device. Since magic is in their blood, they have a natural talent for all things magical.
Activating wands should be like second nature to them.

Also Simple Weapon Proficiency is pretty trash. If they were proficient with a single Martial Weapon in PnP (like the Battle Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer) that would be interesting.

[Tsidkenu]

...what do they do in all that free time they have?

It's called Simple Weapon Proficiency

[NegInfinity]

Sorcerer has always seemed like the weakest caster class to me. Less spells then a favored soul or spirit shaman, less synergy or feats then a wizard. And no special abilities at all unlike every other spell caster. But up until recently i never noticed how bad their skill points are, 2 + int and only one cha skill?. Now i know from a rp perspective they are not as studied as a wizard, but what the hell do they spend their time on? Three lore skills and lying?. They dont need to study their magic you'd think that would mean they do something else with their time. Anyway my suggestion is an increase to skill points and or skill options. Maybe a few cha based skills other the bluff.

They're one of the strongest classes, and are a walking bomb even with weakest build.

Also, they have synergy with cleric's divine shield, while wizards do not.

Basically, google "Obsidian sorcerer" and "Iron sorcerer"

They also get better weapon proficiencies. Wizards cannot use slings and spears.

Tier 1?

Yes, tier one. One rested sorcerer can land several dozen fireballs effortlessly, if they were paying attention to their metamagic skills.

There's some room for RP spells as well. I used to play a crazy summoner who had ALL summon monster spells on every level. It was a big waste of spell slots, but this guy was very playable and quite strong.

So, yeah, it is a Tier one.

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what do they do in all that free time they have?

They practice stabbing things with spears, obviously.

[Lyna]

They're one of the strongest classes, and are a walking bomb even with weakest build.

Also, they have synergy with cleric's divine shield, while wizards do not.

Basically, google "Obsidian sorcerer" and "Iron sorcerer"

They also get better weapon proficiencies. Wizards cannot use slings and spears.

And wizards have synergy with swashbuckler, invisible blade, combat Insight, Bladesong Style, hips based builds.. Mind you all of that's irrelevant because i am referring to inter class synergy. E.G a charisma based class with only one charisma based skill.

As to the weapon proficiency i feel like i don't really have a nice way to address this addition by Wotc. So i am just going to ignore it for now.

There's some room for RP spells as well. I used to play a crazy summoner who had ALL summon monster spells on every level. It was a big waste of spell slots, but this guy was very playable and quite strong.

There is very little and the gap will grow larger and larger with every addition of new spells.


Debating what is tier one is not really what this topics about. So for the sake of not drawing attention away from the topic i will leave my opinion on the matter as a spoiler.

Hidden: show

Yes, tier one. One rested sorcerer can land several dozen fireballs effortlessly, if they were paying attention to their metamagic skills.

There's some room for RP spells as well. I used to play a crazy summoner who had ALL summon monster spells on every level. It was a big waste of spell slots, but this guy was very playable and quite strong.

So, yeah, it is a Tier one.

Tier one means its capable of doing absolutely everything, better than classes that specialize in that thing. Even in PnP it is more often then not classified as tier 2 or 3.. here its competing with wizard, favored soul, bard and dragon druid. Now compared to wizard you have less feats, spell options, the ability to change spells, skill points, skill options and a level behind spell progression which means less room for prestige classes. In trade you gain a single additional cast per spell level and spears. So its pretty obvious wizard wins that round.

Now compared to bard. This ones a little harder to do a direct comparison but for the sake of simplicity lets simply compare blasting ability and nothing else. Song of requiem can do up to 130 damage a round and heals the user for half that, for 5 rounds. A total of 650 sonic damage per use, 20 to 30 uses a day. A sorcerer with empowered polar ray can do an average of 135 damage, that's one cast per round roughly 4 - 6 casts a day. That's your biggest single target nuke. So your are not winning if its one target, granted multiple targets you start to catch up. However that's not counting for all the hits/effects the bard is doing during their song or its healing. I mean a bard even has more 6th level arcane spells then a sorcerer. Then account for their skill points per level, skill options, song effects and some spells, armor proficiency, casting ability in armor, weapon proficiency and so on. It seems pretty clear who wins that one in both pve and RP power.

I could compare favored soul and dragon druid as well, but i am pretty sure neither of these needs a comparison as far as pve is considered. Favored souls get more spells, same casts per level, better skill synergy, free bonus feats/ability's every few levels, more hp, better proficiency and so on. Not sure if you have ever played a dragon druid but well you can literally afk in almost every boss fight and come back to free loot.. So there is not much to say there.

Now in saying all of this while i don't consider Sorcerer tier one i also don't consider them bottom tier. which is why my suggestion is not about pve power, its a quality of life / rp change.

[mrm3ntalist]

How many levels of sorcerer you guys get? And no, sorcerers are not weak. Not by a mile. Like BMD said, not having true spontaneous casting is hindering them in a way, but are not useless in anyway. When in an unfamiliar environment a sorcerer with a well thought spellbook can easily surpass any wizard.

The key is a well planned spellbook. This is what makes a sorcerer great or a waste.

[AC81]

Sorcerers ARE tier 1, they do not under any circumstances need a mechanical boost. However I can't see a problem with adding diplomacy and intimidate to their class skills.