Viability of Different Ranged Weapons - Your Thoughts?

[Khazrak]

Before I make a character here, I'm interested in knowing how the different ranged weapon types compare. Note that I have not played this server in a VERY long time, and therefore I may no longer be familiar with how the balance between the weaponry actually is here now.

Essentially, I'm trying to deduce the viability of the different ranged combat styles so as to figure out if the character concepts I have in mind are worth using.

I'm going to mention each briefly with a summary of what I perceive to be obvious benefits and flaws with each:

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BOWS

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In general, the benefit of the longbow seems to be minimal feat requirements to actually make it useful. You get a decent composite longbow (or shortbow, I suppose, but the shortbow is probably inferior here) and use a mixture of strength for damage and dexterity for attack. Being dependent on two stats sucks, but bows can be used by Arcane Archers, get as many attacks a round as the player has available to them, and I'd assume this to be the first mainstay ranged weapon style.

I think the bow will most often get compared to the crossbow, since when I last played the crossbow was very common to see in use. The bow will not do as much damage in a manyshot in theorycrafting, but with a proper bow you might have better sustained DPR. Being that the bow is the least expensive ranged weapon feat-wise, it seems to me that whoever uses one will have more room for other feats (such making sure to get better saves overall and, say, Steadfast Determination). It's also perfectly reasonable, in my mind, to see it slapped readily onto elven clerics and the like, who can bring to bear Divine Favor and other buffs, and who generally don't have as many feats to spare as a Fighter would.

In general, the bow seems like a solid weapon, but its MAD requirements may push people to prefer the Crossbow. It's definitely a better choice than the sling or thrown weapon at a quick glance, as higher base damage and a x3 crit make the longbow very attractive.

Humans and any race with a +2 DEX or +2 STR and no penalty to the other relevant stat should be good choices here. Wood Elves and Tanaruk get +2 STR/DEX, making them excellent choices for this role.

CROSSBOWS

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But Crossbows, while limited in their number of attacks, can potentially hit far harder. Adding 1.5 * your dexterity mod = quite a lot of damage. A character with 19 DEX at chargen could easily have 26 DEX before items at level 30, or 30 with a simple +4 spell or item, which translates to a whopping +15 damage per crossbow shot. For a two feat investment, that's not bad.

The downsides are pretty hefty, however. You need 2 feats (Rapid Shot / Rapid Reload) to get 3 attacks per round, a number you cannot surpass if I recall correctly (correct me if I'm wrong!). You spend 2 more to get Crossbow Sniper and the upgraded version. Your Manyshots will hit hard, obviously, but that's a lot to sacrifice, and it leaves very little wiggle room for defensive feats even if you take 12 levels of Fighter.

Strongheart Halflings and Svirfneblin both seem absolutely perfect in this role due to size modifiers, high DEX, and good static defenses. Of course, any race with +DEX will do well here.

SLINGS

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These weapons seem to be in an odd place. They have no strength cap for damage, so that's a plus, meaning you could theoretically stack Strength and make a hard hitting rock chucker. However, like the bow they require two stats (STR and DEX) to make them work, and I'm willing to assume there aren't as many rare, powerful slings as there are rare, powerful bows. They can't be used with Arcane Archer, and while the Halfling Warslinger PRC looks interesting, overall it only helps ranged characters do more AoE damage, and doesn't actually help with single target DPR at all.

What IS interesting is the prospect of throwing Barbarian or Frenzied Berserker levels onto a slinger to boost damage, but Fighter 12 seems absolutely necessary one way or the other - or a lot of Bard levels.

A cautionary note: on other servers, I've seen a Small sized character's sheet read as treating the sling as a 2-handed melee weapon for the purpose of applying Strength to damage. However, it does NOT seem to actually do so in practice. If it did apply 1.5xSTR, halfling slingers might be highly viable. I do not know if this is the case here.

Finally, note that slings have a piddly 1d4 x2. They're bludgeoning, and that can be nice sometimes I guess, but as far as base weapon stats go they are quite literally the worst of all the ranged weapons.

Strongheart Halflings have a lot of solid advantages that make them viable here, but the -2 Strength would hurt a bit. Humans should do fine with a sling. Any race with +Strength or +Dexterity and no penalty to the other stat would be good. Wood Elves and Tanaruk get +2 STR/DEX, making them excellent choices for this role.

THROWN

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Thrown weapons lie in a particularly interesting place in NWN2 PWs. Unless things are different here, thrown weapons have a problem in that their ammo is VERY limited. There's no infinite ammo for a given thrown weapon, so you can't replace it when it runs out. You don't have an ammo slot, so you have less total enchantments compared to other ranged weapons. Thrown weapons also typically have weaker enchantments; it's easy enough to find +2 thrown weapons, but good luck finding an epic one to match whatever doomsday device the other ranged weapons have available to them; and if you DO find one it will only last for so long before it vanishes forever. Some vendors may have great thrown weapons available, but this becomes a terrible moneysink.

However, thrown weapons have one distinct advantage going for them: Brutal Throw. You can build a character entirely around Strength and deliver considerable damage. Now, it's noteworthy that a Crossbow user gets more +damage from Dexterity, but it's far easier to boost Strength than Dexterity, and the thrown weapon specialist will get as many attacks as he or she pleases (as compared to just 3). Ergo, the initial Manyshot from the Crossbow specialist will hit far harder, but assuming equivalent weaponry, the thrown specialist has a higher ceiling for DPR throughout a given round.

There is a 'but' here. A thrown specialist will still want 17 Dexterity baseline to be able to afford Manyshot and Imp. Rapid Shot. Thus, dumping Dexterity is still not advisable.

Consider this, though: this is the only style in which Rage, Whirlwind Frenzy, and Frenzy would outright boost your attack as well as your damage. There's a lot of very interesting ways to bolster your attack and damage with thrown weapons.

Part of me wonders if Divine Might could be used to powerful effect in the case of thrown weapons. Assuming a high STR/CHA build, you could throw around Epic Divine Might, Brutal Throw, perhaps Rage or Frenzy, 12 Fighter levels... Maybe? Only a few races could pull this off, however.

Lastly, the Stormlord is an interesting pick for the thrown specialist. It's not as powerful as in the base game, but free shocking/sonic weapon enchantments on thrown weapons is really nice, and Extended Storm Avatar is pretty much an "I Win PvP" button if you're fighting other ranged combatants. You have to worship Talos, so bear that in mind.

Despite all this, I'm still not sure how viable thrown weapons are as a go-to weapon type on this server. There's plenty of interesting ways to build a character utilizing them, but those downsides they have are really rough. EDM or rage might be fun for a thrown weapon user, but can it really provide the needed edge to qualify the user as being "roughly equal" to manyshot HIPSing crossbow assassin or a really good arcane archer?

EDIT: One more problem comes to mind - on other PWs, Thrown weapons did NOT qualify for taking the feat Ranged Weapon Mastery. They'd benefit from it, but you'd need Weapon Specialization in a different weapon to make them work with the feat. I don't know if that's the case here, but if it is, it makes the feat tax to +2 attack/damage VERY high. (Needing to take Weapon Focus AND Weapon Spec in, say, a bow just to get Ranged Weapon Mastery and THEN taking Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec in your favorite throwing weapon is a gosh dang pain, let me tell you.)

Halflings may seem like a good choice for this weapon style initially (Small and thrown racial bonus = +2 attack), but their attack bonus is negated by their strength penalty (-1 attack/damage). Meanwhile, a Half-Orc or Earth Genasi gets no penalties to Dexterity but a bonus to Strength (+1 attack/damage). Wood Elves and Tanaruk get +2 STR/DEX, making them excellent choices for this role.

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In summary, it seems like this: if you want to be a HIPS Assassin, you go Crossbow. If you want a weapon that's well supported in items, ammunition, and class features (see: Arcane Archer), you go Bow. There's not much to make the sling viable compared to other weapons (sans the fact that you can wear a shield), and thrown weapons have a lot of potential but are limited by running out of ammo and not having a launcher (the bow/crossbow/sling vs. ammo) to provide extra enchantments/effects. Overall, the bow and crossbow seem like they should be the "best" weapons.

So, back to the purpose of this thread: does this analysis seem correct? Are there any differences in opinion you'd like to voice? Is there data that supports or debunks this?

Thanks for your thoughts. Whatever you say will help me build a character that is fun thematically while valid and useful mechanically.

[Theodore01]

there is also that to consider:
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... bat_system

[Khazrak]

Good info, thanks! That definitely skews things further in support of the use of longbows and crossbows.

[Endelyon]

I've made a tweak so that light crossbows and shortbows don't get any harsher of a penalty than their heavy xbow and longbow counterparts. I've also updated the wiki to reflect this information. It should be packaged in the next update.

[Diamore]

Throwing weapons are easily the worst option. I have tried several times to construct an effective throwing character and always end up unable to make something worth making.

- Resource restriction: As you are consistently throwing away your main weapon statline, you are either paying incredible amounts to have an average damage profile compared to other weapons or have to make up for a sub-par basic attack. Weapon stacking is still buggy past the 50 mark and nothing ruins your day more than suddenly running out of an ammo type and running directly into melee combat.

- Feat Support: There is no feat that offsets the benefits of building a throwing character identically to any other dexterity based build. Brutal Throw's accuracy improvement is negligible compared to the requirements of getting Manyshot etc as well.

- Class Support: Your option is Stormlord and thus Talos worshipper. There is limited flexibility in your build's rp once this is decided.

- Options: Any option that would work to create a unique throwing character (Str/Ranger w Brutal Throw) works better with any other weapon due to weapon options and...

- Range: The range modifiers for using thrown weapons make them complete rubbish. In a normal ranged engagement having a -6 to -12 to hit is normal. Your attacks have no penalties when just outside of melee range and that's it.


Slings on the other hand have potential, mainly as a halfling Warslinger. They have several good weapon options, mighty built in and most of the same advantages as crossbows and longbows. Their range still suffers, although it doesn't appear as noticeable or dramatic as the thrown options (even though they have the same modifiers apparently) possibly because you may wish to get inside melee range on occasion with a sling user and make use of shield slam feats.

A change in the range modifiers such as a reduced maximum penalty and something that allows for a "Returning" thrown weapon would at least mitigate some of a throwing characters issues.

[Sun Wukong]

I have a Brutal Throw Bard, it has worked fairly well thus far.

[Cenerae]

It's worth noting that certain ranged feats can be picked up on items. I'm not sure how many of them are out there, but for an example, my tiefling ranger is using a +3 EB heavy crossbow that has rapid reload as a bonus feat, mighty +4, and infinite +3 ammo. And you can buy that from a vendor, though it will take a lot of work for a new player to come up with the cash for it. There are much cheaper crossbows out there with rapid reload on them too.

It might not be the best of ideas to tie yourself to a weapon purely because it has a feat you need in the build, but it's something to consider.

[Khazrak]

Throwing weapons are easily the worst option.

The more I tinker, the more I agree.

I decided to see what I could get if I actually pursued the Rage + Fighter + EDM route, just to see what sort of edge case idiot build I could make for a Brutal Throw character. The results are funny, and I'm not sure they're satisfying. I can't imagine the roleplay coming from this character being very engaging (unless you really want to see a drooling elf that loves axes and rocks).

NWN2DB doesn't even let you pick Ranged Weapon Mastery unless you have a ranged weapon that isn't a thrown weapon selected with Weapon Specialization. Just confirmed it. Ergo, no matter what, you CANNOT benefit from the +2 attack and damage that bow, crossbow, and sling users will get unless you waste 2 feats on a weapon you never plan to use. At that point... why bother with it?

It looks like you could build for decent damage. And note, you can probably do a LOT better than just having 24 levels of Fighter; but it provides the most feats to make getting EDM while having 17 DEX and a full build viable. I imagine Elemental Archer or something like that would feel better. You could probably make something less cheesy than an 8 WIS cleric, too. (Yes, this is a thing you can do AFTER level 1.) A Favored Soul / Stormlord with a Blackguard dip, perhaps? Fighter 12/Bard 8/Barb 3/Cleric 3? All of these feel like tough sells. EDM Brutal Throw would be fun to do, but it's probably better to pursue a less stat intensive route.

So, to make thrown weapons competitive, you'd need to do quite a bit:

1. Make them actually be able to get Ranged Weapon Mastery like literally every other ranged weapon. This may actually be the case here. I'm still in the character planning phase, and haven't gotten to check this in-game. PLEASE someone check this one if possible.
2. Give them infinite ammo or SOMETHING. I've heard there was a server that implemented "Thrown weapon bags" which generated non-tradeable, non-sellable ammo of the appropriate type (say, +4 silver darts with +1d4 holy damage) that vanished if you rested, and the bag only had one "use" per rest to generate ammo (but generated a lot of ammo). If that could be implemented, that'd be a great start.
3. Seriously, the range issue for thrown weapons and slings looks awful. You and the target have to be within the radius of a Fireball spell for you to get your full Attack Bonus? Really? That seems excessively short ranged in practice.

In short, thrown weapons look like they're in a high damage place if set up right, but the various issues involved with reaching that place (and the very probable lack of epic thrown equipment) makes it a suboptimal choice.

I've made a tweak so that light crossbows and shortbows don't get any harsher of a penalty than their heavy xbow and longbow counterparts. I've also updated the wiki to reflect this information. It should be packaged in the next update.

This will help. Could you work on thrown and sling range modifiers, too? Again, because literally having to be within a fireball's radius to not take a penalty is... awful.

I have a Brutal Throw Bard, it has worked fairly well thus far.

I imagine it can! Needing 17 DEX and then pumping STR and maintaining enough CHA to do some magic sounds fairly MAD though. I'd think a sling would be a more naturally choice for a bard. Or a bow.

Still, maybe that's the route to go if you want to use Brutal Throw. +7 or more attack/damage from Bard could be really tasty, and would help support the whole team.

It's worth noting that certain ranged feats can be picked up on items. I'm not sure how many of them are out there, but for an example, my tiefling ranger is using a +3 EB heavy crossbow that has rapid reload as a bonus feat, mighty +4, and infinite +3 ammo

It's good info, though as you said it's probably not worth making a build around. If RP ever saw you forced away from your favorite weapon, well... Crap. Moreover, if you found a better weapon that DIDN'T have those feats... crap.

I'll bear this in mind once I finally start playing. I can always reroll and grind hard to make up for it.

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Thus far, I'm thinking that the basic build I want to design will be thrown or bow based. I like the idea behind Crossbow Sniper, and my rock-lobbing gnome on Skullport was a blast to play, but I find Order of the Bow Initiate SUPER intriguing. Though if I could get a solid EDM Brutal Throw build off the ground that is powerful and fun to RP... that, too, would be intriguing.

That's probably a place for another thread, either way, and in the appropriate section (Character Building, IIRC).

[Endelyon]

This will help. Could you work on thrown and sling range modifiers, too? Again, because literally having to be within a fireball's radius to not take a penalty is... awful.

I think the max distance for throwing weapons should be increased to be more viable. We're discussing some possible changes.

[Sun Wukong]

I have a Brutal Throw Bard, it has worked fairly well thus far.

I imagine it can! Needing 17 DEX and then pumping STR and maintaining enough CHA to do some magic sounds fairly MAD though. I'd think a sling would be a more naturally choice for a bard. Or a bow.

Still, maybe that's the route to go if you want to use Brutal Throw. +7 or more attack/damage from Bard could be really tasty, and would help support the whole team.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?277172 <= Bards get a ton of skill points by default, and enough buffs to Listen skill that -1 from wisdom doesn't even sting. Not to mention that you can always go down the route of 13 Charisma and +3 item. (You need to switch the order of Extend Spell and Northlander Hewing though, BAB requirement changed.)

Another build you should consider is a strength based Ranger/Stormlord. They get Favored Enemy damage, they get the elemental damage, and of course they can make use of the massive strength modifier. (Northlander Hewing nets our character 4 attacks per round with bab of 26, and you no longer get double weapon EB bonus.)

As for the need to switch between stacks of throwing axes/darts, find a merchant that sells them in stacks of 99. (Such as the one in Eastern Farmlands.) Buy a stack, and another, and another... What you notice is that the game engine tries to re-organices the throwing axes and darts into stacks of 50, and partially fails at it. Thus if you buy 10 stacks of throwing axes or farts, you will have 9 or 10 stacks with 50, and one stack with 490+ throwing axes or darts. You can sell back the stacks with 50 throwing axes or darts, and just keep using the stack with 490+. It is a bit of a hassle still, but it has fixed the greatest issue with a thrower character.


Oh, another possible thrower build is a wisdom based Monk 20/Assassin 10 with both Intuitive Strike and Zen Archery - because Blazing Aura works with all weapons.

[Thorsson]

This will help. Could you work on thrown and sling range modifiers, too? Again, because literally having to be within a fireball's radius to not take a penalty is... awful.

I think the max distance for throwing weapons should be increased to be more viable. We're discussing some possible changes.

I hope there isn't a counter intuitive result of thrown weapons outdistancing slings (when clearly it ought to be the other way round).

[Lockonnow]

well the feat over Oversized Two Weapon Fighting work for a Ranged Weapons if not how about it?

[Diamore]

The bard build presented is pretty much the epitome of the problem. That build based on a crossbow would be better, or a bow or a sling for that matter. Its effectiveness in melee is noticeably better.

Throwing weapons are an add on to melee strength builds with no dexterity, a spare feat and nothing else to waste their gold on.

Stormlord is realistically the only effective choice, but is limited by build and RP. It is also just as likely to make for a better spear based melee build.

[Rudolph]

Weapon Mastery (Thrown) is available on the server. I have a build that took it.

Looking forward to the tweak to the range penalty for throwers - it's crazy as is, esp. since thrown weapons will often be used as a supplement to non-hipsing melee and there would be no point in using them if you have to close in to almost melee range anyway.

Once the above issues are fixed, though, I think throwers will be quite competitive indeed for players who don't consider ammo cost an issue.

I think that, all things considered, Stormlord is not the best cleric choice for a thrower, by the way, but this is a long story...

[Steve]

I'd like to add that Builds for Range Combat are one thing, but that BGTSCC now has a Custom Ranged Combat System that adds YUUUGGEEEE penalties to almost all ranged combat instances, is a absolutely NO FUN.

It seems as if there was some decision made that Range Combat was OP, and there needed to be some penalty to its OP-ness. But was that really the case?

Maybe it is just me, but last time—within the last year—I tried to play up a Ranged build, I felt the game play completely hampered by the custom Ranged Combat system, which ONLY provides penalties to combat, with no obvious bonuses.

I realize that based on the Text regarding the custom Ranged Combat System, mobs also suffer these penalties. However...who ever got rofflestomped by ranged mobs in the past?!?!? Hello! Equip a shield, and you're more or less immune to ranged attacks.

But for a Ranged PC, having up to -12...MINUS 12!!!...AB for penalties almost all the time, that is harsh!