Questions/Concern regarding scaling of monsters & xp rewards

[Incarnate]

I've noticed that monsters seems to become stronger when:
- when in a party.
- when in a party with higher level characters.
- when others are nearby or the very least when they enter the same area.

I've also noticed that the xp rewards from monsters are way less than what they should be, I assume there is some sort of cap?

For instance I've noticed for instance with the Hilltop Ruins Kobolds, they definitely don't feel like a CR of 1/4. But according to this post: Areas By Challenge Rating (CR) the kobolds are CR2 - I certainly don't hope this is CR2 each, as this would require a standard party of 4 at least of the same level to defeat a SINGLE kobold.

For example a party with an ECL of 2 facing 3 kobolds each a CR2 would be an encounter level of 5 = a very difficult encounter. HOWEVER, with dynamic scaling and the scaling of monsters based on ECL of the party, will most certainly lead to pc's dying because they can't handle it. For a solo character of same level - it would be an UNBEATABLE encounter.

A kobold by standard is a CR of 1/4, so with the above encounter setup it would be an easy encounter, but for a solo character it would be of the same difficulty and would be very difficult. So obviously for a solo character with the first setup, it would be even more difficult to overcome.

In regards to xp rewards, obviously xp should be shared and be relative to the characters levels respectively, furthermore if venturing solo, the characters should be rewarded what they're due without the cap as they're running a much greater risk, especially with how the scaling seems to work currently.

One of my main concerns is that you cannot see if you're fighting scaled encounter, the only thing you can see is the color coded monsters which is seperate from this, which also seem to scale the same way.

Have I perceived the scaling correctly? If so it seems like a system that is interesting but certainly also one that really can punish players, especially the lower level players due the encounter suddenly scaling the CR of the monsters, which inherently increases the statistics of the monsters. I can certainly attest to that it can punish players, I had a level 7 character soloing the East Chionthar ruins with summons that was buffed, where everything was going fine, but suddenly color coded monsters spawned, which I simply could not kill, even with these out of the picture the regular monsters there was suddenly much harder, where I basically had to retreat and bunker down - turns out another party had also ventured in, when trying to escape I ended up dying - so that was a real nice xp loss because another party ventured in.

I think it would be much better with an increased amount of spawned monsters rather than scaling their CR, because you can quickly guage whether or not they're too many, you cannot gauge something you cannot see or measure.

Examples for comparison:
You have a CR 1/4 Kobold, that is scaled to CR 2 due to circumstances - the players cannot see or measure how dangerous this is.
This CR 2 Kobold would be the equivalent of 8 CR 1/4 Kobolds - the players can quite easily guage how dangerous this could be, alone because of the sheer numbers.

PS: I'm a longtime PnP DM so I care about these sorts of details.

[NegInfinity]

It goes like this:

BGTSCC mosnters do not follow PnP power level. They're WAY more powerful than their pnp versions. The higher the level is, the worse it gets.

Likewise xp rewards do not follow pnp level either. Realistically speaking you usually were getting 20 xp per kill for a creature of your level. Last time I played situation has improved slightly and situation became more manageable, but xp still remains fairly low. You won't get progression speed similar to pnp combat encounters.

Area CR is rough guidance and is not PnP equivalent of a challenge rating. Depending on your class and knowledge of mechanics, it may be possible to take out something that is many levels stronger than you are. Kobold area, for example, should be sufficiently easy to clean with ONE properly built level 2 fighter, although usually it would work better with a slightly more powerful character.

Likewise several areas can be much tougher than their CR suggests. For example Goblin mine can spawn boss monsters that can make life difficult difficult for character level 17 characters.

Basically, it is not a PnP CR, it is not PnP difficulty, and it is not PnP rewards. It is a "very rough idea of difficulty" at best.

[dedude]

I will try to address some of your concerns regarding the scaling CR. (You can read about the system here)

• Example: Your level 7 character is in an area, and another (higher level) group of PCs enter that area : The CR of the area doesn't change as the system is based on the average level of the lowest level group, in this example that is still your character.
• Example: A large group with average level of 10 is in a CR 5 area. All current spawns in the area are increased to CR 9 to fit the group. Your level 7 character then enter the area. : First thing as you enter you will get a message that creatures in the area are scaled up due to other characters present. After you have entered, all new spawns will now be based on your level as you are now the lowest level group in the area. Your level 7 will now cause the creatures to spawn in at CR 6.
• You can't assume to know the exact CR of a specific creature you encounter. Experience may tell you that kobolds in the Hilltop Ruins are fairly easy to deal with for your character, but we make no promises that all kobolds are as easy or hard as those. The dynamic CR may mean that when your character gets a new level, then the kobolds follow suit and all become slightly stronger as well - to a certain point of course - for a solo character they can only be increased up to 2 levels, and never above your level - 1.
• Areas By Challenge Rating (CR) is just a guideline.
• Both XP and loot drops scale with increased CR.
• Color codes used by the system are: Gold = boss level creature, Dark Purple = Elite units (usually accompanied by a boss)
• Both Boss and Elite units can scale like regular spawns, but they also generally have other mechanical advantages over the regular spawns. Be careful engaging them solo.
• Sometimes you just have to run away and live to fight another day An invisibility potion in the belt pouch will go a long way in keeping you breathing.

[Incarnate]

It may just be me, but if they're that much harder its only reasonable that they yield more xp, especially if soloed - greater risk, greater rewards.

So it would also be reasonable to have it scale in relation to how many is in the party, and if solo it would be scaled down to a certain minimum. It should be possible to venture in without a party and without actually having to be several levels above - its counter-productive to only have it stay or scale up based on level and NOT scale down based on the same.

Either have it reward more solo or let it scale down, soloing is a greater challenge than in a party, and as it is, many character builds will have to be chucking healing potions, and that sets one behind action-wise as they all get an attack where you are using a potion.

I don't have do know the exact CR of the creatures present, but its impossible to guage how dangerous they are, especially if you enter when there is another party already in - as those creatures that have already spawned don't respawn with the newly adjusted CR.

What exactly causes the color coded creatures to spawn anyways?

It makes sense to have them scale and the xp along with them, but the xp rewards are very low compared to what they would be normally. Like for instance if a character at level 1 managed to kill a CR 2 creature, the character would normally be receiving 600xp, which really is fair, considering the great risk involved, not to mention that it most likely also was very costly. Where a party of 4 at level 2 would be getting 150. But here that would probably be 50 maximum, which is a 1/3 of that, but for the level character taking down the CR 2 and only getting 50 as well, thats close to 8,4% of what the character would normally have gotten - then considering that they considerably more powerful, or the very least can become more powerful then they should reward more.

Also, I haven't seen this message before "creatures in the area are scaled up due to other characters present. I seen a message stating that there are stronger creatures in the area and that one should be careful. That message isn't only seen in dungeons, but also areas you have to travel through - which isn't really a good thing as it necessitates the requirement for other and possibly higher level characters to help keep you alive, and these characters aren't part of your party, so you gain nothing for these creatures being stronger and you risk getting killed and losing xp because others are in the area that you have to travel through, this is even in very low level areas.

I guess the xp cap is there to prevent power-levelling!?

[NegInfinity]

It may just be me, but if they're that much harder its only reasonable that they yield more xp, especially if soloed - greater risk, greater rewards.

You do get more xp if you take out stronger monsters. However, you will get 30 xp instead of 20. Yellow colored mini-bosses can yield more, if they spawn. Which doesn't happen often.

I don't have do know the exact CR of the creatures present, but its impossible to guage

Start a fight, if things are tough, run away.
In case the area has spawned tougher creatures, you get a red notice in combat log.

Like for instance if a character at level 1 managed to kill a CR 2 creature, the character would normally be receiving 600xp,

You don't ever receive 600xp per kill on bgtscc. The maximum amount of xp per kill (of normal, non-boss creature) I ever was able to get was 50, and that required fighting monsters with CR 4 levels higher than my character's level. Solo.

But here that would probably be 50 maximum

Consider maximum to be 30. 50 xp is uncommon.

[Incarnate]

You do get more xp if you take out stronger monsters. However, you will get 30 xp instead of 20. Yellow colored mini-bosses can yield more, if they spawn. Which doesn't happen often.

I know, but 20-50 xp is very low compared to the standard one would get in the standard game of NwN2 and PnP Game.

Start a fight, if things are tough, run away.
In case the area has spawned tougher creatures, you get a red notice in combat log.

No thank you, I have tried that quite many times to take a gamble like that only to be downed before I could even have second thoughts about the gamble, or be reduced to something like 3 hp then attempt to chuck health potions only to receive a hit that brings to or below 0 hp. Consider the lower level characters that don't have a big amount of health as buffer for that kind of gamble.

You don't ever receive 600xp per kill on bgtscc. The maximum amount of xp per kill (of normal, non-boss creature) I ever was able to get was 50, and that required fighting monsters with CR 4 levels higher than my character's level. Solo.

Yeah, I know we don't and in my opinion that should change to a more reasonable number.

One of the reasons why I think it should be able to scale down as well, is simply because currently its pretty much a necessity to party up if you're not above with at least 2-3 levels of the CR, this means you can only realistically solo CR areas that is below your level with at least 2-3 levels, where as soon as you want to progress to equal your level or higher CR areas, then again you'll be forced party up. As it is now it necessitates partying up unless you're above level-wise, and in my opinion everyone should have the option to MECHANICALLY not be forced to party up in order to venture out. Of course there should also be some limits to this, so obviously, as they can only go to levels up when scaling up, then it makes sense that they can go two levels down if downscaling, and as a result the rewards should also be scaled down.

Consider the that lower level characters will be forced to party up to get to get some levels underway, if they are to stand a chance at even attempting soloing. For instance a level 1 character don't have the option to actually attempt soloing, because lowest CR area is 0.5 and to be able to attemp soloing it the character needs to be at least 2 or 3, which a level 1 character obviously enough isn't. So with the current system as it is, it necessitates partying up - which means its will be on other players terms and not your own.

Additionally, scaling up low level areas is extremely dangerous for the low level characters they don't have many hp to stand against with. To me that seems like a very punishing system, that really isn't very rewarding. Some years ago I had a DM to DM talk with one who thought that he could use higher CR monsters against a party of much lower levels by simply reducing their hitpoints - which certainly doesn't make them any less deadly. However, increasing hit points and damage certainly does make them more deadly, where lower level characters won't be able to keep up. As such, I don't think its a good idea to scale up creatures in a lower level area, and you know what, that warning message that they're stronger than normal - that is metagaming, because using OOC knowledge IC, certainly is metagaming.

The only reason I can see why the xp reward is capped, is to prevent power-levelling, which instead makes the game a grind.

[dedude]

This is neither an NWN2 single player campaign, nor a PnP session. XP rewards are scaled to the game experience wanted by the admins. In many ways this server is closer to an MMORPG than anything else.

Down scaling would essentially have no effect. Setting a creature at CR 5 and letting it up/down scale +/- 1 is the same as setting it at CR 4 and letting it up scale +2.

Maybe you are chasing too high CRs trying to reach the XP rewards you are used to in PnP?

[Incarnate]

This is neither an NWN2 single player campaign, nor a PnP session. XP rewards are scaled to the game experience wanted by the admins. In many ways this server is closer to an MMORPG than anything else.

I do realize that - so they either want a grindfest, or trying to slow down players from reaching higher levels - which basically makes it a grind, because you have keep working the same areas over and over. Either way, its still quite low.

Down scaling would essentially have no effect. Setting a creature at CR 5 and letting it up/down scale +/- 1 is the same as setting it at CR 4 and letting it up scale +2.

Only if you already have scaled creatures down, otherwise it would have an effect. Because, currently it seems the creatures have been scaled up from what they're from standard. Bear in mind that low level characters certainly would benefit from the downscaling when it comes to being able to actually venture out on ones own terms rather than be forced party up just to be able to survive, which makes it on others terms.

Maybe you are chasing too high CRs trying to reach the XP rewards you are used to in PnP?

..and what high CRs would that be? For the record, I have way more experience with DM'ing than playing. (Been playing PnP since I was 8 years old, now 36, and 2/3s of that time have been DM'ing). The CRs I've been at are those low ones. CR0.5, 1, 2, 2.5, 3 and 4. Also been trying to do quests that don't revolve around fighting and yet they do lead you through higher CR areas than what the character would be able to handle - like for instance Maltz quests. In general, people should be able to do adventuring without a party and without having to be 2-3 levels above as that is counter-productive. You seriously need to remember the first levels are the hardest and scaling those will only make it that much harder - I don't know, but it seriously seems like the bar has been set way too high where the result is a very mechanically punishing game.

Normally Kobolds would be 1/4 and Goblins would be 1/3, here they're 2 and respectively, they scale up and the xp rewards are seriously reduced, it may be what the admins want, but perhaps the admins should consider tweaking this. Personally I don't like to grind, and its not fun to keep dying and punished for dying just for trying to level in the low areas where you normally should be able to handle decently while soloing. It may be that there are items that help out in the beginning with extra hp, but thats not a lot plus having to keep chucking healing potions to survive will result in that one may if unlucky run of them and run out of gold to purchase more. I wouldn't be surprised if there were many others who would feel similar about it.

[Lighters]

I just wanted to offer a different perspective.

I've leveled from lvl 2 to lvl 12 in a matter of a handful of sessions, all between 30 minutes and 2 hours or so (there was one marathon of about 4 perhaps). Either way, a very short amount of time.

In that time I've noticed the creatures scaling up and have LOVED it. I am still able to find challenge in the hilltop ruins, I am still able to earn XP from the simple bandits along the tradeway (at level 11 I think I was still getting upward of 20!) and those are not difficult fights (as an RP build rogue-bard with skill feats, my character isnt a powerhouse).

I enjoy the feeling of the unknown, the challenge, and the 'whats-around-the-corner' feeling I get when I know boss mobs are on the maps, and I enjoy the treasure they drop.

I dont see any of this as an issue. I quite like it.

As for grind fest.. I've noticed several of my RP associates sail past me repeatedly in the last couple weeks. If anything the leveling is still quite fast. Have you run quests? Do you RP? I think I get as much RP XP as I do mob XP when RPing through dungeons.

[Incarnate]

I just wanted to offer a different perspective.
I've leveled from lvl 2 to lvl 12 in a matter of a handful of sessions, all between 30 minutes and 2 hours or so (there was one marathon of about 4 perhaps). Either way, a very short amount of time.

Did you do it in a party or solo? How many times did you die? Somehow I sense it was in a party, because it tends to go fast when in a party. When soloing it goes much slower and the risk of dying is much higher, especially if not above CR in levels with at least 2-3 levels.

In that time I've noticed the creatures scaling up and have LOVED it. I am still able to find challenge in the hilltop ruins, I am still able to earn XP from the simple bandits along the tradeway (at level 11 I think I was still getting upward of 20!) and those are not difficult fights (as an RP build rogue-bard with skill feats, my character isnt a powerhouse).

The main issue is the lower level characters, they don't have many hitpoints to stand against with, which means they are FORCED to be in a party if they want to survive, otherwise they're taking a huge risk. Even the characters I've made that have really strong synergy and are very capable combat-wise still gets killed quite fast at the lower levels, even when buffed with barkskin ending up with and ac of like 24-26. I've seen my characters downed with a spell and one hit - basically some 30-35'ish in damage.

I enjoy the feeling of the unknown, the challenge, and the 'whats-around-the-corner' feeling I get when I know boss mobs are on the maps, and I enjoy the treasure they drop.

I enjoy a challenge too, but I don't enjoy getting steamrolled and killed in an area I'm supposed to be able to handle, even solo, dying is really very satisfying.

I dont see any of this as an issue. I quite like it.

So you don't think its an issue that players are FORCED to party up to venture out, because otherwise they die because they're not mechanically capable yet? What I do like is that it scales, but that comes at a price, especially when others who are higher level are in the area that you go into.

As for grind fest.. I've noticed several of my RP associates sail past me repeatedly in the last couple weeks. If anything the leveling is still quite fast. Have you run quests? Do you RP? I think I get as much RP XP as I do mob XP when RPing through dungeons.

Yes, I rp whenever I get the chance also during combat - heck I even rp solo with npc's and the creatures I slay, but does that mean I want to party up all the time, certainly not - but I am forced to do that in the low levels. It may be that they're levelling quite fast, its still a grind fest, because you get higher levels you progressively need more xp and when they only yield between the 20-50'ish then it does become a grind. Its also a grind at the lower levels, especially compared to what you could've been getting normally.

[Lighters]

Did you do it in a party or solo? How many times did you die?

Both. I have partied many times but early on before I met some folks I solo'd a lot as well.

I think I died 3 times? I don't know off hand, but the penalty for death is so slight (especially at low levels), and the ease of raising so generous, that it isn't an overwhelming factor.

The RP of dying is always there, and that does suck, but I RP it as a brush with death more so than dying outright in most cases - and 3 times doesn't seem inordinate over 10 levels.

So you don't think its an issue that players are FORCED to party up to venture out, because otherwise they die because they're not mechanically capable yet? What I do like is that it scales, but that comes at a price, especially when others who are higher level are in the area that you go into.

First, I dont think that players ARE forced to party up. I was solo on a level 2 rogue/bard and was able to progress just fine. Yes, you earn more in a party both through RP XP and through increased party strength - but thats the name of the game. This isn't (primarily) a solo game.

Higher level players in the area you go into only impact you if you run into an already-spawned creature (and you are warned - if not up for the challenge then proceed cautiously) You coming into the area brings all new spawn back to their normal CR.

Its also a grind at the lower levels, especially compared to what you could've been getting normally.

And there is that "normally" again. I really think your difficulties are more a matter of perception. This isn't pnp.

[Incarnate]

Both. I have partied many times but early on before I met some folks I solo'd a lot as well.

I think I died 3 times? I don't know off hand, but the penalty for death is so slight (especially at low levels), and the ease of raising so generous, that it isn't an overwhelming factor.

That really does depend on how many times you die and if you run out of gold to buy the things that will help keep you alive. The penalty may not be that great, however the things you've used accumulate that lost xp is also lost, and you might not be able to replace it, which will have a diminishing effect on performance.

The RP of dying is always there, and that does suck, but I RP it as a brush with death more so than dying outright in most cases - and 3 times doesn't seem inordinate over 10 levels.

You've been lucky then, I've died with one character almost over 8 times and its just barely over level 4.

First, I dont think that players ARE forced to party up. I was solo on a level 2 rogue/bard and was able to progress just fine. Yes, you earn more in a party both through RP XP and through increased party strength - but thats the name of the game. This isn't (primarily) a solo game.

You partied up from level 1 to 2? Because that is also part of my point, that you should be able to venture out solo even on level 1 - which some can but only the strongest and sturdiest can do that. Tell me, why should one who solo, get the same amount of xp as those who share the xp, when the one soloing is having a far greater risks and is doing all of the work?

Higher level players in the area you go into only impact you if you run into an already-spawned creature (and you are warned - if not up for the challenge then proceed cautiously) You coming into the area brings all new spawn back to their normal CR.

Don't know if you realize it, but that message is actually OOC knowledge and actually is metagaming, because your character would have no way of knowing they're more dangerous than normal.

And there is that "normally" again. I really think your difficulties are more a matter of perception. This isn't pnp.

Even in Nwn2 the xp rewards are higher, more in line with that of PnP. The only reason I see why there is a cap on the xp rewards is to slow down level-progression to some degree, also to make power-levelling more difficult/timeconsuming perhaps.

[NegInfinity]

I know, but 20-50 xp is very low compared to the standard one would get in the standard game of NwN2 and PnP Game.

That's not a PnP game and not a single player game. XP progresion on bgtscc is modeled after BG game. It is annoyingly slow, true, but that's how it always was.

Start a fight, if things are tough, run away.
In case the area has spawned tougher creatures, you get a red notice in combat log.

No thank you, I have tried that quite many times to take a gamble like that only to be downed before I could even have second thoughts about the gamble, or be reduced to something like 3 hp then attempt to chuck health potions only to receive a hit that brings to or below 0 hp. Consider the lower level characters that don't have a big amount of health as buffer for that kind of gamble.

THat sounds like you have poor gear. I suggest to keep trying till you figure out how the server works, or travel in groups.

You don't ever receive 600xp per kill on bgtscc. The maximum amount of xp per kill (of normal, non-boss creature) I ever was able to get was 50, and that required fighting monsters with CR 4 levels higher than my character's level. Solo.

Yeah, I know we don't and in my opinion that should change to a more reasonable number.

That won' t happen. 600 xp per kill is extremely uncommon on majority of PWs.

One of the reasons why I think it should be able to scale down as well, is simply because currently its pretty much a necessity to party up if you're not above with at least 2-3 levels of the CR, this means you

All areas are soloable with most classes.
However it requires patience, being careful and good knowledge of the server and available items. Mechanically strong classes have easier time, but partying is not required.

Keep trying.

[NegInfinity]

That really does depend on how many times you die and if you run out of gold to buy the things that will help keep you alive. The penalty may not be that great, however the things you've used accumulate that lost xp is also lost, and you might not be able to replace it, which will have a diminishing effect on performance.

You need to come up with better strategy. If you keep dying current one doesn't work. I rarely ever party, and there isn't really a problem getting a level 1 to level 20, no matter what you play.

Visit shops, find quests, improve your gear.

[Lighters]

You partied up from level 1 to 2? Because that is also part of my point, that you should be able to venture out solo even on level 1 - which some can but only the strongest and sturdiest can do that. Tell me, why should one who solo, get the same amount of xp as those who share the xp, when the one soloing is having a far greater risks and is doing all of the work?

No, I started adventuring at level 2. Level 1 was done entirely through local quest XP in about an hour's time.