Make shapechange great again

[GholaMan]

Seriously, the changes to shapechange are overall awful. I mean its nice that we finally have more than 5 shapes to choose from but now the 20 or so shapes are all shit. We had 5 decent ones, 2 of the five were great. Now its just 20 shitty options, its badness now is on the level of spell warden. Which means completely useless outside of RP. Is anything planning on being done about the sorcerers and spirit shaman who have that as one of their 4 9th level spells?

[Endelyon]

The Horned Devil was previously the best shape mechanically and it's exactly the same as it was before (and now even more powerful with Augment Form and Transmutation foci), so what's the issue?

[Sun Wukong]

The 'NAT' AC listed in the image below are not correct, and partially misleading.

For example a Troll is listed to have NAT AC of 8, while in shape they have 19. I would assume that the NAT AC is the form bonus on top of base 10 AC, which is then boosted by dexterity modifier, and spells that actually increase natural armor.

I suppose it would clarify things to list the actual in game base AC of each form.



https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Polymorphing <= From there.




Oh, and I guess the complaint is due to the following: Monk AC is disabled during wildshape, polymorph and shapechange. Not to mention that Spirit Shamans do not yet get their Storm Avatar Electrical damage and Flame Weapon added to their Shapechange forms.

Another point of contention is probably this too: 100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent exploiting.

Spirit Shamans do not really benefit from Augment Form, at least not without multiclassing into Frost Mage or something.



Oh and:
Tanar'ri traits: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Demon
Baatezu traits: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Devil
Construct traits: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Construct_(Creature_Type)
Undead traits: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Undead
Celestial traits: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Angel

No idea about Slaad and Fey traits.

[GholaMan]

Yeah what sun wukong said.

I only have one character that makes heavy use of shapechange and yes they are a shaman, but the thing is I loose AC on most of the forms I have changed into with the exception of a couple. And really two feats for a spell? You cant honestly expect that sort of justification for every possible build that was out there that actually relied on shapechange. There is nothing balance wise that has been added that justifies the removal of monk AC when shapechanged.

What you seem to fail to recognize is that as a sorcerer or shaman picking spells is as important as picking your feats. Simply ripping off 14 AC out of a build without giving anything back is ludicrous. Not only did I loose the AC but because my character is a sacred fist I still cant hit anything because creature weapons. The worst possible thing that could have happened did. For some reason QC decided that spirit shaman monk was just too stronk and needed a nerf.

Because really that removal of monk AC to shapechange could have only been targeted at that combo. Sorc/monk would have had an irrelivent amount of Wis for that to make a difference. Same thing with wiz/monk. Druids are the other class that get access to shapechange, however there is no reason for them to slot that spell when they can turn into better forms, cast spells in them, with better damage and AB and don't forget they will have relevant DC's by building wisdom.

Shaman on the other hand if you build wis will have nonexistent DC's, and nonexistent AB. The character that I have, which by the way is my main, the one I play the most is a Shaman/monk/sacred fist. This change isn't just a nerf, it totally destroyed the viability of the build. Which by the way isn't the most OP thing in the world. The build has really good defenses, and that's it.

[Endelyon]

Another point of contention is probably this too: 100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent exploiting.

I think I understand the complaints except this one. Can you elaborate why there shouldn't be a mechanical spellcasting failure to prevent people from bypassing the spellcasting lockout while polymorphed?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Another point of contention is probably this too: 100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent exploiting.

I think I understand the complaints except this one. Can you elaborate why there shouldn't be a mechanical spellcasting failure to prevent people from bypassing the spellcasting lockout while polymorphed?

Yeah this stumps me, given your familiar can buff you while you're in another form.

[GholaMan]

Its an exploit, I never used it myself. So it was never really relevant to me, either I was playing as a shapechanged tank for bosses in a group. Or I was healing everyone and participating as bad dps.

And also just as a side note, the horned devil wasn't the best form imo. I actually preferred the nightwalker because I could actually hit things with it even with the -10 AB. The new nightwalker has less str than it used to. I cast an extended regen/vigorous cycle before shapechange the regen you got from that on top of premonition with the fact that you had undead immunities and I was at 69 AC with the form. The devil had higher AC and more regen but worse AB and immunities. Basically the devil was used for tanking the balor/white dragon/ acting as a meatshield in Avernus. Where the nightwalker was pretty much better in every other area except the frost giant king who had enough cleric levels to turn you.

[Sun Wukong]

Another point of contention is probably this too: 100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent exploiting.

I think I understand the complaints except this one. Can you elaborate why there shouldn't be a mechanical spellcasting failure to prevent people from bypassing the spellcasting lockout while polymorphed?

Yeah this stumps me, given your familiar can buff you while you're in another form.

In D&D proper you can actually still cast spells if you meet the spellcasting requirements. There is a topic about it in the mechanics forum

And really two feats for a spell? You cant honestly expect that sort of justification for every possible build that was out there that actually relied on shapechange.

With two feats, a Wizard 30 could get BAB of 22 in Polymorph or Shapechange spell. For a class that already has medium BAB progression the feat does nothing. Most builds that relied on shapechange had a tendency to build for AB and BAB anyhow...

Not only did I loose the AC but because my character is a sacred fist I still cant hit anything because creature weapons. For some reason QC decided that spirit shaman monk was just too stronk and needed a nerf.

That Sacred Fist PRC gives you a -10 AB penalty. A build without Sacred Fist would have +10 AB and that AC of 67+, without Improved Combat Expertise even turned on. I think I can see the balance concern.

Anyhow, how does your character fight out of Shapechange? Can you get Flame Weapon and Storm Avatar damage on your unarmed attacks, with Flurry of Blows? What about all those Druid spells without DC? Can you make use of those?


(I have nothing against you getting a full RCR if you so want.)

[Nachti]

Spirit Shaman/Monks

Yes. It was intented to nerf this class combo.

Its AC was ridiculous hight and that prevented real transmuter specialists such as Shifter, Master Transmogrifist or Arachnomancer to become what they are supposted to be.

I'll tell DMs to grant free RCR for these builds.

Polymorph and Shapechange

The QC is responsible for testing the strength of shapes & builds. If they give me verified test results I can adjust the stats of creatures according to it.

Familiar casting spells to buff after shapechange

Familiars should be only able to deliever touch attacks. I'll fix this.

Augment Form

This feat was not meaned to buff spirit shamans.

The new nightwalker has less str than it used to.

Nope, the nightwalker still has 38 STR.

[BlueAce417]

So this Augment Form feat...

Do I HAVE to be an Archmage to get it or can I pick it up like I can Augment Summon? By taking Spell Focus (X) and Greater Spell Focus (X)?

[Steve]

My character Hurgon Wyrmstone is a Spirit Shaman (10), Dragonslayer (10), Hospitaler (6), Doomguide (4) build, but only just reached Level 22.

The build plan was made far before Nachti's additions and changes to Polymorphing, but I was surely excited to hear about additions, knowing that after some many months of gaming, I might have a chance to utilize them in Hurgon's RP.

This thread is a chance to compare some of my tests with the new Polymorphing system and my assumed statistics/power levels of Hurgon, that I planned for.

The AC I have assumed for my Build, non-Shaped, is: 17 + 2 (w/ DEX +3) + 4 AC + 8 Mith plate + 4 Deflection + 4 dodge + 9 Tortoise shell = 48 (+4 shield spell + 2 IMA = 54; + 2 hvy shield = 56). With NH active = 52 / 54 (w/ Shield)

Currently, at Level 22, Hurgon has AC of 51 fully buffed. If I choose the Clay Golem form, fully buffed, that AC drops to 39. If I use the Devil form, the AC drops to 48. If I use Fire Giant, that drops to 30 AC !!!

I have yet to take but made a Build plan change to take up-to-Epic Spell Focus Transmutation, for the +4 AC (it was even better when it was proposed to give AB as well!!! ). So if and when I do get Epic spell focus Transmutation, the 2 forms I mention above will be 43 and 52 respectively, which is to say still below what an non-Shaped power level I have assumed.

This just one small comparison for brevity's sake, but...if the goal here with Polymorphing 1.1 is to make sure that Shapechange forms are never more powerful than non-Shaped power, I can get behind that. Especially if each Form has a specific power that grants it something special equal-but-unique form what a non-Shaped power can have (like, in the case of Clay Golem, one has Magic Immunity!).

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Augment Form feat and Epic Focus Transmutation do not, in my opinion, make the Forms more powerful. What makes the Forms more powerful is their unique aspect.

Augment Form just increases BAB, which might grant 1+ APR, but at such a low BAB anyway, its not much to write about (sure, the build will get 2 attacks in the 1st flurry, but hardly OP). Augment Form will never be better than building a true 26 BAB build, buffing and casting Haste before Shaping or Tenser's.

Epic Focus Trans is only more defensive power, in AC gain, and Shapes already are notorious for being very tanky. Granted, the new Shapes have been re-balanced to reduce their innate AC and thus, the Epic Focus Trans feats are becoming a "must have" for tankyness, which I always hate to see because it means less options available in building.

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The question that lingers in my mind is: AC gained via Monk class based on Wisdom score, has been disabled...but has innate Monk AC been disabled? That adds a little bump which should be fine, right?

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Another point of contention is probably this too: 100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent exploiting.

I think I understand the complaints except this one. Can you elaborate why there shouldn't be a mechanical spellcasting failure to prevent people from bypassing the spellcasting lockout while polymorphed?

Here: viewtopic.php?f=446&t=60728

Alter Self / Polymorph / Shapechange allows for casting in Forms that meet both somatic and dexterous requirements. Period. But the unspoken or dance-around argument is that casting while Shaped is too powerful. Though, the Polymorph shapes themselves are stated as being RP shapes, thus...how could those be too powerful to allow casting?!?

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Flame Weapon and Storm Avatar

Flame Weapon is transferring over (the 1d8 Fire). Storm Avatar 3d6 electrical is NOT transferring over. Maybe just and oversight, currently?

[Lockonnow]

I see that shapechange can make you in to a skeletor how about a lich and a vampire to?

[Nachti]

So this Augment Form feat...

Do I HAVE to be an Archmage to get it or can I pick it up like I can Augment Summon? By taking Spell Focus (X) and Greater Spell Focus (X)?

like Augment Summon it requires spell focus and can be take by any caster.

The question that lingers in my mind is: AC gained via Monk class based on Wisdom score, has been disabled...but has innate Monk AC been disabled? That adds a little bump which should be fine, right?

Also disabled.

Steve

Youre doing something wrong.


And you can even add IMA for +6 more.

[Nachti]

I see that shapechange can make you in to a skeletor how about a lich and a vampire to?

No time for new shapes or adjustments. I have to post replies instead.

[Steve]

Here is Hurgon fully buffed, then directly shaping into Fire Giant and Devil:


https://postimg.org/image/3sjiahe2z/

You can add +2 AC from IMA (unused in my picks; I have +4 AC bracers) and +1 from DEX (Hurgon was not using Cat's, which he needs cause he lacks a +3 DEX item...still looking!). So maybe +3 to AC of the shapes as well?

Though...most of the time is it 99% user error!! lol