Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

When making a Red Wizard it would seem it would be all about the DC, as a specialist wizard one school of magic has already been banned from use, which should the second school to be banned be in your opinion. As it is, not that many schools of magic would benefit from a DC-based caster. All of the various schools have some good to offer, but some seem to offer much less but more important/strong spells or they offer a lot of beneficial spells but not that powerful. Furthermore, it could prove important to know which should be the secondary school that you'd select for spell focus. This is especially important if you're building towards Archmage as you'd want the secondary spell focus to be the school that would benefit the most from it.

Which schools would seem to benefit the most from a DC-based caster?
Which schools would seem to benefit the least from a DC-based caster?
Which would be the optimal secondary school for a DC-based caster?

Listed below are the specializations, lore-wise opposing schools, a list of some of key spells lost if banning the oppsing school.

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**Abjurer**
Build Focus Spells: Mordenkainen's Dysjunction, Spell Mantles
Opposing School: Abjurers lose access to Conjuration
Useful spells you lose access to:
-All Teleport Spells
-Mage Armor/Improved Mage Armor
-All Orb spells (I.E. Orb of Force, etc.)
-Melf's Acid Arrow
-Flame Arrow
-Evard's Black Tentacles
-Arc of Lightning
-Vitriolic Sphere
-Acid Fog
-Summon Creature I-IX
-Planar Binding (All versions: Lesser, and Greater)
-Gate
-Ice Darts
-Deadly Lahar
Notes: This build is a good candidate for counter-spelling. Fill your spell book with nothing but buffs and dispels. Take Mastery of Counterspelling at level 23 instead of Spell Power. You end up with Caster Level 37. A Mordenkainen's Dysjunction with caster level 37 is extremely effective. It will strip any buffs that are cast by a caster with 28 caster levels with 100% effectiveness. If you remain in counter-spell mode you can fire any spells cast upon you back at your opponent with great effectiveness using your dispels as a means of counter-spelling.

**Conjurer**
Build Focus Spells: Gate, Summon Monster I-IX, Acid Fog
Opposing School: Conjurers lose access to Transmutation
Useful spells you lose access to:
-Enlarge Person
-Reduce Person, Mass Reduce Person and Greater Reduce Person
-Expeditious Retreat
-Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon
-Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom
-Mass Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom
-Blindsight
-Keen Edge and Weapon of Impact
-Spiderskin
-Bestow Curse
-Shout and Greater Shout
-Disintegrate
-Tenser's Transformation
-Stone Body and Iron Body
-Stone to Flesh and Flesh to Stone
-Greater Stoneskin
-Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness
-Mordenkainen's Sword
-Shapechange
Notes: This is a poor choice for a school specialization. There are no spells that would greatly benefit from specialization in this spell school. Some of your buffs might be more difficult to dispel (i.e. Improved Mage Armor), and your summons may last longer, but many of the buffs you would give your summons cannot be cast (i.e. Greater Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength and Spiderskin).

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**Diviner**
Build Focus Spells: Scrying, True Seeing, Premonition, Power Words, True Strike
Opposing School: Diviners lose access to Necromancy
Useful spells you lose access to:
-Ray of Enfeeblement
-Curse of Impending Blades and Mass Curse of Impending Blades
-False Life
-Death Armor
-Vampiric Touch
-Enervation
-Animate Dead
-Cloudkill
-Circle of Death
-Create Undead and Create Greater Undead
-Undeath to Death
-Control Undead
-Avasculate
-Finger of Death
-Energy Drain
-Wail of the Banshee
Notes: This is just a poor choice for a school specialization. Take it for RP purposes, but you gain very little as a Red Wizard with this spell focus. There are no Divination spells that would benefit from Spell Power. None of them are DC based. The only benefit would be that Premonition and True Seeing are more difficult to dispel when cast by a Diviner.

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**Enchanter**
Build Focus Spells: Dominate Monster, Hiss of Sleep, Mass Charm Monster, Mind Fog
Opposing School: Enchanters lose access to Illusion
Useful spells you lose access to:
-Bladeweave
-Blindness/Deafness and Mass Blindness/Deafness
-Ghostly Visage
-Invisibility
-Mirror Image
-Displacement
-Invisibility Sphere
-Greater Invisibility
-Phantasmal Killer
-Glass Doppelganger
-Ethereal Visage
-Shadow Shield
-Solipsism
-Shades
-Shadow Simulacrum
Notes: Enchanters have similar weaknesses to that of Illusionists. Their spells are easily negated with mind-spell immunity. Overcome this with the same tactics that the Illusionist uses. All elves are immune to sleep. Enchantments are ineffective against opponents with a high Will save.

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**Evoker**
Build Focus Spells: Bigby's spells, Polar Ray, Meteor Swarm, Missile Storms
Opposing School: Evokers lose access to Conjuration
Useful spells you lose access to:
-All Teleport Spells
-Mage Armor/Improved Mage Armor
-All Orb spells (I.E. Orb of Force, etc.)
-Melf's Acid Arrow
-Flame Arrow
-Evard's Black Tentacles
-Arc of Lightning
-Vitriolic Sphere
-Acid Fog
-Summon Creature I-IX
-Planar Binding (All versions: Lesser, and Greater)
-Gate
-Ice Darts
-Deadly Lahar
Notes: An Evoker has extremely powerful Bigby's spells. Caster level greatly enhances the effectiveness of their Bigby spells. It improves the hand's armor class as well as the grapple check and duration. Evokers are also offensive powerhouses. The DC's on their offensive spells are very high and bypass spell resistance with ease. Some evocation spells are ineffective against opponents with a high Reflex save.

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**Necromancer**
Build Focus Spells: Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death
Opposing School: Necromancers lose access to Divination
Useful spells you lose access to:
-Identify
-True Strike
-See Invisibility
-Clairaudience/Clairvoiyence
-Power Words (I.E. Power Word Kill)
-Assay Resistance
-Feeblemind
-Legend Lore
-True Seeing
-Banishment
-Premonition
Notes: Necromancers get high DC death spells. The problem with death spells is that they are so easily countered with Death Ward and Shadow Shield. Use the same tactics that the Illusionist and Enchanter use in order to make these spells effective. Strip the enemy's defenses before casting any death spells. Death Ward was added to the list of breachable spells on BGTSCC. Death spells are ineffective against opponents with a high Fortitude save.

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**Transmuter**
Build Focus Spells: Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone
Opposing School: Transmuters lose access to Conjuration
Useful spells you lose access to:
-All Teleport Spells
-Mage Armor/Improved Mage Armor
-All Orb spells (I.E. Orb of Force, etc.)
-Melf's Acid Arrow
-Flame Arrow
-Evard's Black Tentacles
-Arc of Lightning
-Vitriolic Sphere
-Acid Fog
-Summon Creature I-IX
-Planar Binding (All versions: Lesser, and Greater)
-Gate
-Ice Darts
-Deadly Lahar
Notes: Transmuters only really get two effective spells. Both of them can be negated by opponents with high a high Fortitude save. The benefit of being a Transmuter is that there is no immunity to these spells like other DC based spells such as death spells and enchantments.

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**Illusionist**
Build Focus Spells: Weird, Solipsism
Opposing School: Enchantment
Useful spells you lose access to:
-Sleep
-Tasha's Hideous Laughter,
-Deep Slumber
-Heroism & Greater Heroism
-Hold Person/monster & Mass Hold Person/Mass Hold Monster
-Charm Person/Monster & Mass Charm Monster
-Confusion
-Crushing Despair
-Dominate Person & -Dominate Monster
-Mind Fog
-Hiss of Sleep
-Blackstaff
Notes: Illusion spells are easily negated with mind-spell immunity.

well necromancey is to rise undead to make a army of on dead

Lockonnow wrote:well necromancey is to rise undead to make a army of on dead

Not necessarily - BG:TSCC - Necromancy spells
Necromancy can also be used to weaken and kill, but its not its only use.

Incarnate wrote:lore-wise opposing schools

I don't know anywhere in 3.5 here this is actually a thing.

If you want to know what the best choices for a DC mage is (in nwn2), I think by effect and amount of spells, it goes something like this: Necromancy > Illusion > Enchantment > Evocation/Transmutation - the rest are largely defensive in spell selection or have a focus on non-save spells.

Mechanically, the school you lose least from prohibiting yourself from is Divination. See invisibility can be done by the transmutation Blindsight (again, this is mechanically speaking. The in-character effect is quite different) and Premonition can be found in the illusion spell Shades.

As a Red Wizard, you have to lose two, though, so if I went entirely for mechanics and went Red Wizard of Necromancy or Illusion, I'd probably prohibit myself from Divination and Enchantment.

Actually, if I went Illusion as focus, I might easily have gone for prohibiting Divination and Necromancy. Most of your offensive spells are going to be Illusion with that focus, and Necromancy doesn't have any great buffs (false life is the only one that comes to mind).

From an RP point of view, though, I'd never want to lose divination.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Incarnate wrote:lore-wise opposing schools

I don't know anywhere in 3.5 here this is actually a thing.

Actually.... This is from 3.5:
" The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. "

Source: Sorcerers & Wizards: School Specialization

Furthermore, in 3.5 you can choose which schools to prohibit yourself from.
In 2e, choosing specialization automatically prohibited one from the opposing schools.
Here in NWN2 its much more relaxed as a specialist wizard only loses one school of magic as opposed to two, unless one specialized in divination. So considering you can actually choose to give up divination to get more power or versatility, where in 3.5 thats not even an option. Red Wizards in 3.5 lose even more, they lose 3 schools - which in contrast really shows how much they're giving up to gain that edge.

Deathgrowl wrote:If you want to know what the best choices for a DC mage is (in nwn2), I think by effect and amount of spells, it goes something like this: Necromancy > Illusion > Enchantment > Evocation/Transmutation - the rest are largely defensive in spell selection or have a focus on non-save spells.

Mechanically, the school you lose least from prohibiting yourself from is Divination. See invisibility can be done by the transmutation Blindsight (again, this is mechanically speaking. The in-character effect is quite different) and Premonition can be found in the illusion spell Shades.

As a Red Wizard, you have to lose two, though, so if I went entirely for mechanics and went Red Wizard of Necromancy or Illusion, I'd probably prohibit myself from Divination and Enchantment.

Actually, if I went Illusion as focus, I might easily have gone for prohibiting Divination and Necromancy. Most of your offensive spells are going to be Illusion with that focus, and Necromancy doesn't have any great buffs (false life is the only one that comes to mind).

From an RP point of view, though, I'd never want to lose divination.

I can see a good reason why someone who went Necromancy as a primary would choose Abjuration as their secondary focus, simply because that would allow the necromancer to efficiently strip its enemies of magical buffs, be very strong at countering spells against it self, which most certainly would be bound to happen.

Personally, I'd also lose Divination & Enchantment, and like you I would want to lose divination from an RP point of view, however I'm not entirely sure with losing enchantments as there are some quite potent spells in there that really can be useful, some of them also from an rp-perspective.

it is all about know, and where you headind and what you need to fight pve you set you spells what ever may come

Incarnate wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:

Incarnate wrote:lore-wise opposing schools

I don't know anywhere in 3.5 here this is actually a thing.

Actually.... This is from 3.5:
" The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. "

Source: Sorcerers & Wizards: School Specialization

Furthermore, in 3.5 you can choose which schools to prohibit yourself from.
In 2e, choosing specialization automatically prohibited one from the opposing schools.
Here in NWN2 its much more relaxed as a specialist wizard only loses one school of magic as opposed to two, unless one specialized in divination. So considering you can actually choose to give up divination to get more power or versatility, where in 3.5 thats not even an option. Red Wizards in 3.5 lose even more, they lose 3 schools - which in contrast really shows how much they're giving up to gain that edge.

My point was that there is no such thing as opposing schools of magic. Whatever your specialisation, you choose your prohibited school (or schools).

What I mean is, you don't have to prohibit illusion by going enchantment, as you suggested in your first post. For example. NWN2 vanilla had that, but on BGTSCC, we have fixed a more PnP like choice of prohibited school.

Deathgrowl wrote:My point was that there is no such thing as opposing schools of magic. Whatever your specialisation, you choose your prohibited school (or schools).

What I mean is, you don't have to prohibit illusion by going enchantment, as you suggested in your first post. For example. NWN2 vanilla had that, but on BGTSCC, we have fixed a more PnP like choice of prohibited school.

Alright, but then why make it possible to choose divination as a prohibited school, when the PnP actually says it cannot be chosen to fulfill that requirement?

With that being said, as you also pointed out, there are certain schools that don't make any sense to specialize in from a DC-caster perspective or to have as a secondary focus.

Personally, I'm really not sure which one to lose as the Red Wizard Necromancer if Divination already had been chosen - enchantment would be my preliminary choice, but I'm not sure about that choice simply because there are some spells there which would be quite potent for a Necromancer.

Incarnate wrote:...

Alright, but then why make it possible to choose divination as a prohibited school, when the PnP actually says it cannot be chosen to fulfill that requirement?

...

We did it this way because Divination was the original opposition school in NWN 2. So we kept it available as opposition school. If we hadn't we'd have felt obliged to offer character rebuilds. But that wasn't necessary.

Incarnate wrote:Personally, I'm really not sure which one to lose as the Red Wizard Necromancer if Divination already had been chosen - enchantment would be my preliminary choice, but I'm not sure about that choice simply because there are some spells there which would be quite potent for a Necromancer.

You can probably get away with prohibiting Conjuration. You get normal mage armour (but not improved) through Shadow Conjuration and you don't really need any of the conjuration summons when you're a necromancer. Teleportation is also sort of covered by Shadow Walk.

Deathgrowl wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Personally, I'm really not sure which one to lose as the Red Wizard Necromancer if Divination already had been chosen - enchantment would be my preliminary choice, but I'm not sure about that choice simply because there are some spells there which would be quite potent for a Necromancer.

You can probably get away with prohibiting Conjuration. You get normal mage armour (but not improved) through Shadow Conjuration and you don't really need any of the conjuration summons when you're a necromancer. Teleportation is also sort of covered by Shadow Walk.

There some quite strong and useful spells in Conjuration as well.
Grease, Flame Arrow, Evards Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Planar Binding Spells, even Epic Gate and Epic Dragon Knight.

These three I wouldn't want to lose: Flame Arrow, Evards Black Tentacles and Cloudkill.
- They're that powerful, especially in the hands of a Necromancer where most are his enemies.

Consider Evard's Black Tentacles and Cloudkill cast at the same area - an extremely lethal combination, Grease can also substitute Evard's Black Tentacles for the immobilization effect, but all three in combination are very effective.

Why? Because Evard's Black tentacles will immobilize them and soften them up, cloudkill will either kill them or soften up the their fortitude save, which in turn will make the tentacle more effective, which will make them stay longer in the cloud and the longer they stay in the cloud, the higher the chance that they will die. So either Evard's Black Tentacles or Cloudkill will do it, and if not, then they're at least softened up.

Rasael wrote:

Incarnate wrote:...

Alright, but then why make it possible to choose divination as a prohibited school, when the PnP actually says it cannot be chosen to fulfill that requirement?

...

We did it this way because Divination was the original opposition school in NWN 2. So we kept it available as opposition school. If we hadn't we'd have felt obliged to offer character rebuilds. But that wasn't necessary.

Makes sense, though it does affect the overall balance, which is something to consider. Offering people rebuilds haven't been a problem before, has it? Obviously its inconvenient but sometimes necessary its to balance things. Its not a big loss mechanically losing divination only rp-wise, losing other schools would be a bigger loss mechanically. Question is, would it balance anything making it that way or would it in reality just make Wizard & Red Wizard much weaker in relation to the others? There should be a significant price for power, but maybe thats just me.

Based on the bonus caster levels Abjuration seems an unlikely choice but beastly in PVP.

MrPsion wrote:Based on the bonus caster levels Abjuration seems an unlikely choice but beastly in PVP.

So you're saying a Necromancer who also have an equal spell focus in Abjuration could be an absolute beast in PvP? I agree, I think it would be quite dangerous to fight such a necromancer. However this would come at cost though, because this would mean that either of the others didn't get this focus which at least means that the necromancer has lost something else instead.

Obviously, Necromancy and Illusion are those that benefit the most from having a high DC-based caster.

I wonder if transmutation would be worth to ban as the second school? Because as far as I'm aware, prohibiting it here on BG:TSCC it will still allow one to learn and use spells from level 3 and below - someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

If you ban transmutation you will lose:

• +4 Ability Score Spells (There is a Headband with +4 intelligence)
• Expeditious Retreat (No movement speed increase)
• Haste (No extra attacks for your party members)
• Polymorph Self (It is handy during low levels)
• Shapechange (It is quite a lot of fun with Augment Form feat)
• Stony Body (Lot of immunities, requires Still Spell)
• Iron Body (Lot of immunities, requires Still Spell)
• Ethereal Jaunt (Get out of jail for free card)
• Etherealness (Get party out of jail for free card)
• Flesh to Stone (Failed a save, now you are stone)
• Greater Magic Weapon (No +5 AB and Damage to your party)
• Pass Wall (Get through those annoying walls)
• Spiderskin (It gives +5 natural armor)

Some of the spells you can live without, but if you are partying or using summons, the loss of some of the above spells will sting.

Sun Wukong wrote:If you ban transmutation you will lose:

• +4 Ability Score Spells (There is a Headband with +4 intelligence)
• Expeditious Retreat (No movement speed increase)
• Haste (No extra attacks for your party members)
• Polymorph Self (It is handy during low levels)
• Shapechange (It is quite a lot of fun with Augment Form feat)
• Stony Body (Lot of immunities, requires Still Spell)
• Iron Body (Lot of immunities, requires Still Spell)
• Ethereal Jaunt (Get out of jail for free card)
• Etherealness (Get party out of jail for free card)
• Flesh to Stone (Failed a save, now you are stone)
• Greater Magic Weapon (No +5 AB and Damage to your party)
• Pass Wall (Get through those annoying walls)
• Spiderskin (It gives +5 natural armor)

Some of the spells you can live without, but if you are partying or using summons, the loss of some of the above spells will sting.

As far as I'm aware, prohibiting it here on BG:TSCC it will still allow one to learn and use spells from level 3 and below - so please correct me if I'm wrong here. But if this is correct, then there is still quite a lot spells that would be retained, even quite a bit from the list you provided:

• +4 Ability Score Spells
• Expeditious Retreat
• Haste
• Greater Magic Weapon
• Spiderskin

Some of the other useful retained spells:

• Entangle
• Knock
• Low-light Vision
• Slow
• Enlarge Person
• Waterbreathing

Also, spells can be cast from magic items as well.