Ranged Paladin

[Khazrak]

I know, I've got tons of dumb builds in my head right now. I haven't rolled up everything I've asked about.

I'm considering the merits of a ranged paladin, either using EDM (because EDM is lovely) on a Divinate with auto-extended spells (which SHOULD mean a 60 round 1d4 damage boost with a 4th level spell slot, or 2d4 on manyshots)... or using Cavalier and focusing on smart Favored Enemy choices.

What would work better? And would a sling build be perfectly viable for this? (I love thrown weapons, but unless I RCR my thrower - a distinct possibility, because she's a STINKY ELF - I don't want to do another thrown build.)

Race-wise, I feel like Halfling would make great sense for roleplay, but would be TERRIBLE for EDM. Would make a fun cavalier, though. Wood Elf and Aasimar are fine choices for EDM throwing, but I've already got a wood elf, and Aasimar are just special snowflake humans. *kicks angel-blooded crapstain* (Just kidding, obviously.)

[chad878262]

How will you get enough dex for attack bonus and STR / cha for edm.... and WIS for spells? Seems to be spreading yourself too thin.

Edit... derp, zen archery removes dex requirement so might be doable, though with limited uses of edm and the fact that edm comes late it'll be a tough character to play mechanically.

[Khazrak]

How will you get enough dex for attack bonus and STR / cha for edm.... and WIS for spells? Seems to be spreading yourself too thin.

Edit... derp, zen archery removes dex requirement so might be doable, though with limited uses of edm and the fact that edm comes late it'll be a tough character to play mechanically.

Well, there's a few options. Firstly, there's Brutal Throw, which works super well as long as you can get EDM and Manyshot (which you can - Wood Elves are very good at accomplishing this). But it's feat-intensive to get online, and requires specific race choices.

Hence why I'm definitely considering a halfling cavalier instead: you can practically ignore CHA then. +8 STR from spells, bonus feat, extra DEX... Maybe dip 4 levels of Fighter and eat the XP penalty in order to get Ranged Weapon Mastery? +4 damage = +8 damage per manyshot, stacking with the high STR bonuses, the self-buffs, favored enemy bonuses...

So, halfling cavalier is a tempting option. But a wood elf or Aasimar thrower with EDM could also be destructive.

[Valefort]

Paladin 26/fighter 4, EDM divinate, specialized in one ranged weapon through fighter feats. Stay at rapid shot and that should be fine, can't afford manyshot and EDM imo.

30 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) + 4 (weapon EB) + 2 (mastery ranged) + 4 (DEX mod (?)) + 1(bless) +1 (aid) - 2 (rapid shot) = 41 AB

Damage : 1d8 (arrow) + 20 (EDM) + 2 (weapon spec) + 2 (mastery) +4 (EB) + 5 (mighty) = 36.5 damage

41/36/31/26/21/16/41 attack schedule

+1 AB on an halfling !

[Khazrak]

If you don't have enough DEX for manyshot, won't your attack bonus be lower than it should? Also, Manyshot = double the damage bonus from EDM - it's what makes being a ranged EDM character worth it.

Consider this example. Imp. Unarmed Strike = Brutal Throw, Use Poison = Ranged Weapon Mastery. With buffs up, this character has 30 STR and 30 CHA - very reasonable. Attack is based off of STR, EDM adds 20 damage still (or +40 on Manyshot).

If you choose to use standard attacks: 30 (BAB) + 10 (STR) + 1 (weapon focus) + 2 (mastery ranged) + 1 (Bless) +1 (Aid) +4 (EB, expensive), no penalty for Imp. Rapid Shot = 49 attack. You can also throw up Blessed Aim for another +2 AB, IIRC (or +1 if it doesn't stack with Bless) - so, 51 AB. That's pretty good.

When using manyshot, your AB drops by -8 per shot - or it should. That still puts you ahead of the original +41 number.

For damage, you've got more damage from your high STR score (30 = +10), and if using Manyshot you double all variables, as you're firing two shots per manyshot. So... yeah, Manyshot turns +20 EDM into +40, or +10 STR into +20.

Doing this math makes me think that if you're gonna do EDM, you're gonna want to do thrown. Would make a sick Divinate, though - albeit I may have to adjust the feats a little if I wanted to do Divinate, since I THINK you need True Believer.

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With all that said, halfling slinger cavalier also looks really good. No Bane of enemies, and your spells aren't the best for you, but if you have respectable STR to start and a high DEX your attack bonus should not be shabby. No EDM = you can focus on that DEX, so your AC should be good, too (especially if combined with a shield). It seems more well-rounded, but not as likely to be a damage king.

Not to mention: every favored enemy bonus you have is effectively doubled when using Manyshot. So if you've got, say, +8 damage vs. undead, it becomes +16. Slings are easier to manage, ammo-wise, than thrown weapons, so that's in your favor as well. +small size, +high DEX, +1 for thrown... The character would be very accurate. Albeit, you don't get +8 DEX like the brutal thrower gets +8 STR, and you'd need to outsource your DEX bonus to either items or a wand of cat's grace.

It's more thematically fitting than a wood elf axe thrower, however. Just probably not as strong.

[Sun Wukong]

Personally, I would not go for EDM. Instead, I would go for something like this:

Aasimar:
STR: 14 + 4 (Bull's Strength) + 4 (Righteous Fury) = 22 (Mod 6)
DEX: 14
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 18 + 4 (Owl's Wisdom) = 22 (Mod 6)
CHA: 16 + 7 (Ability Increases) + 7 (Great Charisma feats) + 4 (Eagle's Splendour) + 4 (Righteous Glory) = 38 (Mod 14)

AB:
30 (BAB) + 6 (Wisdom, Zen Archery) + 4 (Enchantment Bonus) + 1 (Epic Prowess) + 1 (Blessed Aim) - 2 (Rapid Shot) = 40 (If spells stack, you could get +1 from Aid, +1 from Bless for total of 42 AB)

Damage:
1d8 (Longbow) + 5 (Mighty) + 1d6 (Elemental Arrow) + 4 (Enchantment Bonus) + 14 (Divine Might) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) = 32~

As for AC, you got Full Plate, and Divine Shield, +14 AC:
10 (Base)
+11 (Mithral Fullplate)
+4 (Armor Bracers)
+4 (Natural Armor Amulet)
+4 (Dodge Boots)
+4 (Deflection Ring)
+14 (Divine Shield)
= 51

Feats taken:
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Zen Archery
6: Rapid Shot
9: Power Attack
12: Divine Might
15: Divine Shield
18: Blindighting
21: Great Charisma I
23: Great Charisma II, Great Charisma III,
25: Great Charisma IV
26: Great Charisma V
27: Great Charisma VI
29: Great Charisma VII, Epic Prowess

Edit: you could use sling (1d4, so -2 damage on avarage) and get +7 AC from a heavy shield with the Shield of Warding spell on it. You can also just put up a shield and a melee weapon and go to melee town if needed. It is not the strongest Paladin, but it can get the job done.

[Khazrak]

I guess I can see the allure there, but it's also suffering from the lack of Manyshot. Manyshot is the great doomsday device in all things ranged.

With that said... I do like the setup. It's highly defensible, and makes a formidable tank. That tells me "Why not just use a sling?" because then you'd get a heavy shield to add even more armor. 51 AC goes up to 57, because you're using a +4 heavy shield or casting your shield boosting paladin spell on the shield. Damage remains virtually the same outside of crits.

Given that, I think you've helped me cook up a decent build:

This Aasimar gets more AB than the other build (-1 from lack of Epic Prowess, +5 from Imp. Rapid Shot/Weapon Focus/Weapon Mastery), and because he wears a shield has more AC as well (-1 from less Charisma, +6 from wearing a shield). Damage is higher as well (-1 STR, -1 CHA, +4 from weapon spec / weapon mastery). Finally, it has Manyshot, which while it isn't always gonna be useful is AMAZINGLY hard hitting when it is (see: when the enemy's AC is either SUPER high or is lower enough to still hit dependably).

The main drawback is the need for a +3 wisdom item, but those aren't all that rare.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh, you noticed the sling/shield thing as well.

[Sun Wukong]

It is not so good at melee, but it should be able to get the job done.

[Tsidkenu]

I would personally swap the order of Power Attack, Divine Might & Rapid Shot to Rapid Shot -> Power Attack -> Divine Might

It is an incredible boon for a low level character to have 2 attacks at level three, moving to three attacks at level 6, even if all those attacks are at -2.

[Sun Wukong]

Yeah, that is true. You are literally getting more attacks at the enemy.

[Khazrak]

Here we go, then: the halfling paladin shooter, with ALMOST identical stats to the Aasimar except for -1 DEX and -2 INT and +1 WIS. Click! Imp. Unarmed Strike = True Believer.

In the end I settled on Halfling because A) paladins get little mileage out of skill points already, so the INT cost is already, and B) because +1 size bonus and +1 thrown/sling bonus overcomes the -1 DEX AB penalty, and C) because bonus feat = True Believer = Divinate at level 1. I also value +1 to all saves a lot.

1 skill point a level sucks, but hey: sometimes them's the breaks. I considered dropping CON instead, and still am considering it. But I need at least 13 STR and 17 DEX for this to work.

AC should also increase (+1 small size, can still wear mithral scalemail or breastplate with a +5 DEX bonus), and the roleplay value is much cooler to me than a human with a sling. Character will probably be from Gullykin.

Thoughts? 8 INT or 8 CON? (I'm actually leaning 8 CON now - that's, what, MAYBE one glancing hit's worth of damage at level 30.)

[chad878262]

have you considered adding warsling sniper to your build? Even just 3 levels will give +1 AB and ricochet once per round...6 levels will give +2 ab and 1d6 bonus damage on ricochet. in either case would require practiced caster so might not be worth it, only thought about it cuz the +2 would make many shot a bit more feasible.

[Valefort]

Looks good, you have to take divine shield on a paladin level though, I'd shift things around like this if i were you : http://nwn2db.com/build/?284707 Delaying the exp penalty a bit further, getting access to level 4 spells too and delaying blind fight which is not really important compared to a -2 AB penalty, imo.

[Khazrak]

Looks good, you have to take divine shield on a paladin level though, I'd shift things around like this if i were you : http://nwn2db.com/build/?284707 Delaying the exp penalty a bit further, getting access to level 4 spells too and delaying blind fight which is not really important compared to a -2 AB penalty, imo.

Looks good to me!

have you considered adding warsling sniper to your build? Even just 3 levels will give +1 AB and ricochet once per round...6 levels will give +2 ab and 1d6 bonus damage on ricochet. in either case would require practiced caster so might not be worth it, only thought about it cuz the +2 would make many shot a bit more feasible.

Already using Practiced Spellcaster, sadly. I know it's a super powerful PRC, but I have to debate whether having CL 27 is worth +1 AB and ricochet. CL 24 seems like an outright no-no.

[Khazrak]

One last thing...

Any essential items you'd recommend and where to buy them? I'll obviously need a really good sling and a really good shield. I heard there's a +Charisma item that grants Extra Turning somewhere, so I'm also interested in that - though I have no idea where it is. Anything else?