Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hello all.

I'm currently trying to see what kinds of builds that could be possible.
Currently I'm trying to build around making Asoc, Acm and SA fit into Wizard 5 / Red Wizard 3.

Seemingly its possible and would look something like this at level 20:
Wizard 5 / Red Wizard 3 / AsoC 3 / SA 3 / ACM 3.

From the looks of it, it seems that the build would have to be W/RW/AsoC because of the feat requirements. ACM wouldn't be possible to fit into the build before level 13 simply because of the spell level required.

Then the question is, which would make most sense to focus on.
The character is build for being powerful, but I'm not considering it a powerbuild because of the RP reasons behind the character, besides, diversifying too much tends to make characters weaker.

These seem viable:
W5/RW5/AsoC10/SA4/ACM6
W5/RW5/AsoC5/SA5/ACM10
W5/RW6/AsoC7/SA8/ACM4
W5/RW4/AsoC7/SA8/ACM6

// Inc.

[EDIT]
Apparently - Max four classes in NwN2 - this means on of the classes needs to go.
So which one should it be and how should the build in your opinion then look like?

Max four classes in nwn2. Can't have a 5th class

chad878262 wrote:Max four classes in nwn2. Can't have a 5th class

Well so much for that idea.

It would still be interesting to hear what people think should go, and how the build should then look like.

Well, being that shadow adept and red wizards are both application only classes i would say it will likely be difficult to get approved... I know that a coupe people who've submitted bulls with both in the past have been denied. That said it may have been due to not understanding the lore and/ or dohgma of the red wizards or Shar (or both)

chad878262 wrote:Well, being that shadow adept and red wizards are both application only classes i would say it will likely be difficult to get approved... I know that a coupe people who've submitted bulls with both in the past have been denied. That said it may have been due to not understanding the lore and/ or dohgma of the red wizards or Shar (or both)

Very likely one or the other, but it also requires quite the insight in both. Though in my opinion, what is the bull is that it requires one to be a follower of Shar as there is nothing in the lore that suggests that it isn't discoverable or accessible in this timeline to other non-sharran spellcasters, in fact its quite the opposite. The only thing that makes it required is a DM ruling, which I seriously question the reasoning behind.

Another thing thats a worth of note here, Red Wizards are powerful wizards and for the most of them, the shadow weave would actually be an improvement for them, so if anyone would be able to discover it, they would certainly be more inclined to do so.

However, it would very likely be the one to go as its the most difficult to get into the build as it does require both to be approved, but this isn't about that, so I wouldn't mind if people still would let others go instead, if there is a good reasoning behind it. The two mandatory classes are the Wizard and Red Wizard.

purely mechanically speaking ASoC brings little to the table as out looks to be a DC build otherwise. W10/RW10/AM6/SA4 or W6/AM 10 of you prefer would be best from a dc perspective.

I just received word from Ed Greenwood, the main author and creator of the setting. Indeed, any spellcaster is supposed to be able to learn how to and to actually access the shadow weave WITHOUT the assistance of Shar in the year of 1354 DR.

So depending on how the DM's respond to this, it might actually change.

And how do you know Ed Greenwood?

Edit: I would just go for Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 10.

Sun Wukong wrote:And how do you know Ed Greenwood?

Edit: I would just go for Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 10.

I don't know him personally, but he cares about his fans, unlike many other authors, and because of this he actually answers questions his fans might have about his works, such as the Forgotten Realm Settings.

The reasoning behind going for W10/RW10/ACM10? And not something different?

Redwizard gives +5 caster levels with the chosen school, Archmagister can give another +3 to all schools, and Wizard 10 nets you that bonus feat. Thus, you get caster level of 38 with your chosen school of spells, which is epic caster bonus of +6. You can spend the wizard bonus feat on Epic Spell Focus, Epic spell or some such. I think its the same with Red Wizard bonus feats.

It also makes application easier, you are wizard, a red wizard, and an archmage. Things that blend together without any issue.

But if you want... I suppose you could go for Wizard 6/Blood Magus 6/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 8, and get caster level of 41 with blood magic and practised Spell Caster. You get one less feat though.

Oh, a question, do the Blood Component and Blood Seeking component still stack? Scars are handy for PvP. Blood Drougths could be too.

Gotta ask why not worship shar if this is your goal? Shar is a relatively common deity in Thay so would make sense for a Red Wizard to worship Shar (though it wouldn't be common). Seems like you are going at this from a very rare/unique perspective in multiple ways. Going for a Red Wizard that also wants to learn/use Shadow Weave without worshiping Shar. Highly unlikely to get approved as it is pretty much the most powerful way to make a DC Caster so hard not to see it as simply a way to make a PB/PvP wrecking PC.

chad878262 wrote:Gotta ask why not worship shar if this is your goal? Shar is a relatively common deity in Thay so would make sense for a Red Wizard to worship Shar (though it wouldn't be common). Seems like you are going at this from a very rare/unique perspective in multiple ways. Going for a Red Wizard that also wants to learn/use Shadow Weave without worshiping Shar. Highly unlikely to get approved as it is pretty much the most powerful way to make a DC Caster so hard not to see it as simply a way to make a PB/PvP wrecking PC.

Actually, specifically for Red Wizards total obedience to a religious authority is quite alien to them. It would make total sense if Shar actually was trying to recruit the Red Wizards as they're the most powerful wizards, so who would be better suited than them? But due to total obedience to a religious authority is alien to them, it would be very difficult for a Red Wizard reconcile with that and them trying to further their lot in life, and due to this it would be difficult for Shar to actually recruit them - she'd have more luck in winning them over if she had a means to lure them - where the Shadow Weave would be the perfect bait when without the assistance of Shar - because once their fingers in the honeypot, then they're in trouble and the only way out is either convert, be a pawn in her little game or die.

You know, its only because its here on the server its rare/unique, because a Shadow Adept is normally possible without the assistance of Shar - Have you checked the differences between the canon Shadow Adept and the Shadow Adept here on the server? The only difference is the Shadow Weave Magic / True Believer feat requirement, the original Shadow Adept doesn't require one to be a worshipper of Shar, nor is it required for the Shadow Weave Magic feat - BG:TSCC's Shadow Adept requires True Believer feat because they changed the actual requirement - which also has a very radical affect on the character and direction of the character, etc.

Incarnate wrote:Actually, specifically for Red Wizards total obedience to a religious authority is quite alien to them. It would make total sense if Shar actually was trying to recruit the Red Wizards as they're the most powerful wizards, so who would be better suited than them? But due to total obedience to a religious authority is alien to them, it would be very difficult for a Red Wizard reconcile with that and them trying to further their lot in life.

Which is why I said

chad878262 wrote:(though it wouldn't be common)

As in, Red Wizards tend to worship Kossuth or others of the less demanding patrons. However, seeing as Shar is an accepted and actually fairly common deity to worship in Thay, it's at least possible for one to be a Red Wizard and worship Shar.

Incarnate wrote:You know, its only because its here on the server its rare/unique, because a Shadow Adept is normally possible without the assistance of Shar - Have you checked the differences between the canon Shadow Adept and the Shadow Adept here on the server?

No, I do not think this has ever been part of the argument. Shadow Adepts would be QUITE RARE in our timeline. Shadow Adepts who do not worship Shar would be the definition of rare, as in, there might be a couple running around, but certainly not dozens. I am well acquainted with D&D, having started playing in 5th grade and now approaching my 40th birthday. However, I am also pretty well acquainted with this server, having played here for nearly 4 years. This is NOT PnP! This is not a group of 4-10 people sitting around a table with constant DM Supervision. There are numerous examples of players spitting in the face of FR lore so simply put there is a NEED for mechanical restrictions, where possible to protect such things. You might be the very best, most well intentioned role player in the entire world, but the rules need to be in place to protect you from the dozens of other players with less well meaning RP/styles of play.

chad878262 wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Actually, specifically for Red Wizards total obedience to a religious authority is quite alien to them. It would make total sense if Shar actually was trying to recruit the Red Wizards as they're the most powerful wizards, so who would be better suited than them? But due to total obedience to a religious authority is alien to them, it would be very difficult for a Red Wizard reconcile with that and them trying to further their lot in life.

Which is why I said

chad878262 wrote:(though it wouldn't be common)

As in, Red Wizards tend to worship Kossuth or others of the less demanding patrons. However, seeing as Shar is an accepted and actually fairly common deity to worship in Thay, it's at least possible for one to be a Red Wizard and worship Shar.

Actually, most Red Wizards don't worship any deity, but they do recoqnize their power and authority so they're for most of the time just trying not to do things that would anger the gods. Kossuth is the deity who's mainly worshipped by people in Thay, just not many Red Wizards.

Incarnate wrote:You know, its only because its here on the server its rare/unique, because a Shadow Adept is normally possible without the assistance of Shar - Have you checked the differences between the canon Shadow Adept and the Shadow Adept here on the server?

chad878262 wrote:No, I do not think this has ever been part of the argument. Shadow Adepts would be QUITE RARE in our timeline. Shadow Adepts who do not worship Shar would be the definition of rare, as in, there might be a couple running around, but certainly not dozens. I am well acquainted with D&D, having started playing in 5th grade and now approaching my 40th birthday. However, I am also pretty well acquainted with this server, having played here for nearly 4 years. This is NOT PnP! This is not a group of 4-10 people sitting around a table with constant DM Supervision. There are numerous examples of players spitting in the face of FR lore so simply put there is a NEED for mechanical restrictions, where possible to protect such things. You might be the very best, most well intentioned role player in the entire world, but the rules need to be in place to protect you from the dozens of other players with less well meaning RP/styles of play.

Personally I have 27+ years with DM'ing and playing DnD combined (20+years as a DM).
There are many ways to go about this aspect. One thing for certain, those that don't adhere to the lore should be dealt with, it shouldn't affect the majority of the players (even if the SA players aren't the majority) - the minority being the problem shouldn't cause problems for the majority. One of the ways around this could be as I've mentioned, could simply be to make use of the Shadow Weave dangerous but rewarding. The Shadow Weave Magic feat already has a requirement of 15 Wisdom, this means that wisdom won't be a dumpstat for those, which will affect the character quite a lot. Not only that, if using the Shadow Weave without the assistance of Shar is dangerous, it would be less appealing and the majority of those who'd be interested in it for the power aspect of it would most likely be discouraged - so it would be for those that truly desires it. And using the Shadow Weave without Shar's assistance is disquieting and injurious to the mortal mind.

Incarnate wrote:Actually, most Red Wizards don't worship any deity, but they do recoqnize their power and authority so they're for most of the time just trying not to do things that would anger the gods. Kossuth is the deity who's mainly worshipped by people in Thay, just not many Red Wizards.

Possible, since in 1e mortals don't really know about the afterlife that awaits the faithless and the false... After ToT and before Szass Tam comes to power and starts pushing more RW to become undead it also makes a bit more sense. However, any such wizards that aren't undead would at least pay homage to a deity, even if not being overly devout, once the wall of the faithless becomes somewhat more common knowledge. One of the many issues with our timeline is it can be difficult to determine what is commonly known within the timeline unless you have a library of 30+ year old books to reference back on...I do not.

Incarnate wrote:There are many ways to go about this aspect. One thing for certain, those that don't adhere to the lore should be dealt with, it shouldn't affect the majority of the players (even if the SA players aren't the majority) - the minority being the problem shouldn't cause problems for the majority.

Dealt with how? We have limited DMs and they have limited time. Sometimes we players are our own worst enemies... We constantly complain about lack of DM support for stories, RP, plot lines... Yet we want them to police everything, help fix a PC after we selected the wrong feat or didn't get a skill we needed, ban the player that beat us at PvP for 'cheating', rules lawyer, etc. etc. etc. We want everything, and expect the DMs to know what we want most. Perhaps if, as a community we did a better job of prioritizing what we really want out of this game, we'd be more likely to get it. Unfortunately we will most likely continue wanting it all, and getting very little of each bit.

Imagine the spike in DM activity if people would stop being bullies in PvP (one way or the other) and would stop worrying about every minor issue they have with a PC. Imagine if DMs didn't log in for 2 hours, help a dozen players with their issues and then log out, but instead spent all that time doing quick little 30-60 minute events for players that helped the world come alive on a consistent basis. But no, better for them to worry about ever Paladin or Shadow Adept correctly RP'ing their character and making sure everyone is playing nice and right.

Sorry, Incarnate, this is not specifically in response to you, but more-so the community as a whole. Very few people spend the time and energy to learn about the servers history and then volunteer to help in some way, though the folks we do have are wonderful! This little rant is more just that we seem to come to the conclusion as a group that X should be allowed and if the players do Y then punish them, that way most people get to enjoy X...Yet no one ever thinks that doing it that way requires significant time away from the few DMs we have schedules. So if we can just not allow X, which theoretically requires no monitoring, then the DMs can spend that time actually being DMs.