Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Suggestions or Mechanical Requests for Classes, Feats, Races, Etc.

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Akroma666
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Akroma666 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:45 am

Akroma666 wrote:Northlander Hewing
Suggestion: Raise the STR requirement to 17 and allow for use in shapechange/polymorph.
I counter your argument with this!
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:57 am

Akroma666 wrote:
Akroma666 wrote:Northlander Hewing
Suggestion: Raise the STR requirement to 17 and allow for use in shapechange/polymorph.
I counter your argument with this!
I counter your counter with an argument I've said in the past:

'Give Bear Warriors their own version of "Northlander Hewing" while in the bear form.'
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Akroma666
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Akroma666 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:07 am

Sun Wukong wrote:
Akroma666 wrote:
Akroma666 wrote:Northlander Hewing
Suggestion: Raise the STR requirement to 17 and allow for use in shapechange/polymorph.
I counter your argument with this!
I counter your counter with an argument I've said in the past:

'Give Bear Warriors their own version of "Northlander Hewing" while in the bear form.'
Love me some bear warrior.. mhmm. :clap:
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Akroma666 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:35 pm

Wanted to drop this, someone might want to check my math to be safe but:
[color=#FF0000]Barb 20 Fighter 10[/color] wrote: AC: Base 10, +1 Luck of heroes, +3 dex, +8 MFP, +20 EB, +6 Heavy Shield, +2 level 20 AC, +1 Armor Skin, +5 Rage AC = 56
DMG: 2d6 (8), +10 Base ability Score, +5 Epic Rage, +4 Weapon EB, +2 Weapon Spec, +6 IPA = 35
Access to Thundering rage, Full inventory, and Northlander Hewing
W/ Northalnder Hewing
AC= 54
DMG= 54
[color=#40BF00]Barb 20 Bear 10[/color] wrote: AC: Base 10, +1 Luck of heroes, +3 dex, +16 EB (no boots), +3 Natural bonus (over the +4EB), +4 Shield, +2 level 20 AC, +1 Armor Skin, = 40
DMG: 2d6 (8), +10 Base ability Score, +6 Dire Bear Rage, +4 Weapon EB, +6 IPA = 34
I know QC seems to think bear warrior does to much damage, but I just dont see it when a simple Fighter 10 out preforms because you get full access to inventory and abilities. Not saying bear warrior is bad, just that it should be allowed to use Northlander Hewing and other modes.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:39 pm

Barbarian 8/Fighter 12/Bear Warrior 10 with the unarmed feats for damage and AB.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Nachti » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:59 pm

20 EB?

4 Natural
4 Dodge
4 Armor
4 Deflection

= 16

4 Shield, but its noted afterwards as +6 ( 2 heavy 4 ench)

Tumble Bonus is missing.

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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm

Akroma666 wrote:I know QC seems to think bear warrior does to much damage, but I just dont see it when a simple Fighter 10 out preforms because you get full access to inventory and abilities. Not saying bear warrior is bad, just that it should be allowed to use Northlander Hewing and other modes.
Other than the fact that you compare apples with oranges, the bear warrior built you posted is not the most optimal. For example FoF adds damage and AC. Fighter adds AB. There least of the drawbacks of the Bear warrior PRC is the damage. A bear has great burst damage. It doesnt need more.

You can still get any combat feat and use it when not in bear shape. If the bear gets Northlander Hewing - which doesnt amke any sense to begin with - the bear will do ridiculous damage.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Valefort » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:19 pm

Also the base AC of bear is 30, not 10 and they get regen 4 so what's above is misleading.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:23 pm

mrm3ntalist wrote:
Akroma666 wrote:I know QC seems to think bear warrior does to much damage, but I just dont see it when a simple Fighter 10 out preforms because you get full access to inventory and abilities. Not saying bear warrior is bad, just that it should be allowed to use Northlander Hewing and other modes.
Other than the fact that you compare apples with oranges, the bear warrior built you posted is not the most optimal. For example FoF adds damage and AC. Fighter adds AB. There least of the drawbacks of the Bear warrior PRC is the damage. A bear has great burst damage. It doesnt need more.

You can still get any combat feat and use it when not in bear shape. If the bear gets Northlander Hewing - which doesnt amke any sense to begin with - the bear will do ridiculous damage.
You are not considering BW's HUUUUUUGEE drawbacks, like blocked inventory, blocked hotkeys and self-damage upon shifting back.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:33 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:You are not considering BW's HUUUUUUGEE drawbacks, like blocked inventory, blocked hotkeys and self-damage upon shifting back.
They are considered. What was also considered is that the Bear warrior builds were not supposed to be on bear form all the time. Otherwise a druid shapechange would have been used instead. If you chose to focus only on the bear form, in order to squeeze in more PvP power - while still being viable in PvE - then that is your choice and you will have to deal with the negatives.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Akroma666 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:36 pm

Disclaimer: Again, please check my numbers
[color=#FF0000]Barb 20 Fighter 10[/color] wrote: AC: Base 10, +1 Luck of heroes, +3 dex, +8 MFP, +20 EB, +2 Heavy Shield, +2 level 20 AC, +1 Armor Skin, +5 Rage AC, +3 tumble = 55
DMG: 2d6 (8), +10 Base ability Score, +5 Epic Rage, +4 Weapon EB, +2 Weapon Spec, +6 IPA = 35
Access to Thundering rage, Full inventory, and Northlander Hewing
W/ Northalnder Hewing
AC= 53
DMG= 54
[color=#40BF00]Barb 20 Bear 10[/color] wrote: AC: Base 30, +1 Luck of heroes, +3 dex, +12 EB (no boots), +3 Natural bonus (over the +4EB), +2 level 20 AC, +1 Armor Skin, +3 tumble = 55
DMG: 2d6 (8), +10 Base ability Score, +6 Dire Bear Rage, +4 Weapon EB, +6 IPA = 34
Adjusted numbers
[color=#40BF00]Barb 13 Bear 10 Fighter 4 FoF 3[/color] wrote: AC: Base 30, +1 Luck of heroes, +3 dex, + 12 EB (no boots), +3 Natural bonus (over the +4EB), +1 Armor Skin, +3 tumble = 53
DMG: 2d6 (8), +10 Base ability Score, +6 Dire Bear Rage, +4 Weapon EB, +6 IPA +1d4 (3) +2 weapon spec, +2 weapon mastery = 41
w/Hewing
AC= 51
DMG= 54
Essentially slightly more damage than a barbarian but no inventory, items, or abilities and a drop in DR and rages. I do not see the problem here.. I am sure someone out there has a much better barbarian build too.
mrm3ntalist wrote: Other than the fact that you compare apples with oranges, the bear warrior built you posted is not the most optimal. For example FoF adds damage and AC. Fighter adds AB. There least of the drawbacks of the Bear warrior PRC is the damage. A bear has great burst damage. It doesnt need more.

You can still get any combat feat and use it when not in bear shape. If the bear gets Northlander Hewing - which doesnt amke any sense to begin with - the bear will do ridiculous damage.
First off, FoF AC does NOT stack in bear form, and it shouldn't as per how it functions. The damage bonus is +1d4.. so for the damage.. its still garbage by comparison to getting +16 for damage and losing 2 attacks and losing AC. I suggested making an optional feat for bear warrior if the lore doesn't make sense to basically give it a offensive fighting in the form of maul here: viewtopic.php?f=443&t=58104

I am glad QC took my advice for the roar, I still feel it should have an AC drop for damage toggle or ability. I run your minmaxed build currently.. I crit for 65ish on average with FULL epic gear and optimized towards damage. Thats fine and good for a decent fighter.. but a barb 20 with epic rage and thundering rage will just put this to shame. Even a druid in dragon form out damages me. If the intended purpose of Bear Rage was to be a burst ability.. why would anyone want to play Bear warrior if falls short of both a druid shapeshift and barbarian rage?
Last edited by Akroma666 on Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Hawke » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:43 pm

Whatever the decision, I know that it could have been made with Druids and Wildshape, using the "feats" they have for protection. But was never put in. I think this will be one of those "if they get it, I want it too" projects.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Valefort » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:50 pm

A druid in dragonform has not even the slighest slim hope of achieving similar damage sorry (hint they have medium BAB).
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Steve » Thu May 17, 2018 5:13 pm

*bump*

So, is the Final Word that ONLY CE/ICE and PA/IPA and Manyshot will be available in Shapechange/Polymorph? Essentially, only *most* Vanilla NWN2 combat mode feats, and NO BGTSCC custom combat feats?

Thanks.
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Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?

Unread post by Sun Wukong » Thu May 17, 2018 6:03 pm

Valefort wrote:A druid in dragonform has not even the slighest slim hope of achieving similar damage sorry (hint they have medium BAB).
Storm of Vengeance with high DC, and the dragon druid can just sit underneeath one and ticks damage on all hostiles.

AB:
22 (BAB)
+ 13 (Strength, with Bull's)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Fang)
= 40

Damage:
2d8+1 (Base)
+ 13 (Strength)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Fang)
+ 1d8 (Blades of Fire)
+ 1d4 (Thorn Skin)
+ 3d6 (Storm Avatar)
= 44.5~ (Per hit)

I guess you meant to say, a slim chance to have such a low damage output as the bear warrior? Not to mention how Mass Drown reduces the HP of living targets to down to 10%... And so forth.
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