Should Magic have gold cost associated?

[Incarnate]

Normally Arcane Spells and even some cleric spell requires spell or focal components to be cast as per fundamental lore in DnD and Forgotten Realms, where the cost and availability of the material component varies, for some spells the cost and availability would make it negligible, but for other spells it would the cost could be high because the availability of the spell components is low or very difficult or even dangerous to get a hold one, which of course affects it rarity. One of the ways this can be handled is by a simplified gold cost for each spell level, so be able to memorize a spell one was required to be able to afford casting the spell at the time of memorizing it, however some specific spells would require more exotic components and would be required.

The Basic formula for the spell's cost was something like: Spell level x # GP's where the number (#) would depend on how and how much the use of magic was. So for instance 5 GP's might be suitable. The above formula could even be revised further: Spell level x modifer x # GP's.

To give an example: Spell level x 5 x 5 GP's would result in:
Spells would cost:
1st: 1x1x5 = 5
2nd: 2x1x5 = 10
3rd: 3x1x5 = 15
..
..
..
9'th: 9x1x5 = 45

So obviously, if the modifier was set to be 5 it would be five times higher, and if certain spells required specific material components, I think it would have the result that spells in general wouldn't just be used just for the sake of using them, it would be used for more important purposes. It would also mean that a certain amount risk is being taken when using a spell, because it would actually affect your coin amount, so it better actually be worth it.

I'm curious to what people think of this, because I think this is worth exploring as it could passively fix some issues that the server is currently facing and lacking a proper solution to deal with effectively, along with making magic a lot more meaningful. One of the things I think it definitely would affect is that magic would be used a lot more thoughtful, which also would affect how often resting would be used. In my opinon it would make magic a lot more immersive. Suddenly reserve feats would suddenly be much more important.

Of course there are both pros and cons to this - so what are your thoughts to this?

Note: If you have nothing constructive to say, then don't post.

[EDIT]
I'm not saying it has to be a specific gold cost, but something that put magic and its use, in the more lore-appropriate perspective. Reckeo and I discussed alternatives in this thread - Magic in the Realms to Enrich RP Culture of Casters to so it would be more lore appropriate and immersive - we're basically seeking possible alternative avenues to a simple GP cost function - in other words we're seeking a solution, rather than leaving as is.

So what Reckeo and I have got so far, which is certainly worth considering or at least explore and expand upon:
Is basically that a spellcaster need the spell component pouch (as per lore and mechanical rule), such a pouch contains everything needed for the spellcaster to cast spells, including components with a negligible cost, focus and other tools necessary for casting. There would be one type for every school of magic, this pouch would have an amount of "charges"/points based on its size and capacity, where each spell would use an amount of charges based on its level. This pouch could be resupplied in at least these ways:

• One being gathering which would increase its charges based on appropriate skills and general availability in the area where the caster was gathering.
• Second way would be to salvage from other spell component pouches, for instance found on other dead casters.
• Third way would be the easy route, to go to a vendor and have it resupplied.

1st note: As per rules and lore, a spellcaster who doesn't have such a pouch CANNOT cast spells unless the caster has what the spell specifically requires.
2nd note: This wouldn't remove the specific material components that has a gold value reflected.

So let me clarify:
Basically, the pouch spell components is a simplified solution, its not dealing with specific components, but rather with simple numbers.

The gathering part would be a simplified mechanic, so basically whenever this action was performed it would replenish the pouch with a certain amount, which should be based on appropriate skills.

The salvaging part again would be a simplified mechanic, whenever the action was performed as certain amount would be salvaged from the other pouch based on appropriate skills and the type of the pouch.

Resupplying the pouch through a vendor, would be based on its capacity, and would have a gold coin based around how many charges/points is needed until full.

When doing any of these actions roleplaying can also be done.

Furthermore, this also means these pouches could be quite valuable for spellcasters and even non spellcasters. This there is now activities around this, it will encourage people selling their magical services.

Obviously this won't affect those players with mountains of golds, though it will to some degree, at least it will for their new characters they create.
This is both due to what is listed in the 1st and 2nd note. Also and important thing to understand here is that all spells that has a material that will be consumed upon casting with a reflected gold piece value, will still have any such component if this is implemented, the spell component pouch serves as an addon to the existing spell system and content.

So please consider this from a respectful and thoughtful approach on how to improve the RP community of the server as a whole, only add constructive criticism, constructive ideas and proposals that will further the process productively - if you have nothing constructive or productive to add to this discussion, then don't post!

[Lockonnow]

why all that need it will not better server?

[Incarnate]

why all that need it will not better server?

I think it certainly could impact the server in a good way, but like I said there are pros and cons.

So why do you think it would not make it better?

[Lockonnow]

this game is not build for all the thing in DnD world and i most say the server is not that fun couse we cant do the thing like in Elder scrolls it will be dreadfull if we add more that take something away from to give

[Incarnate]

this game is not build for all the thing in DnD world and i most say the server is not that fun couse we cant do the thing like in Elder scrolls it will be dreadfull if we add more that take something away from to give

I case you didn't know, they're actually doing it as mix between PnP and NWN2.

I know its not build for all the things in the DnD world, however, since its a videogame that handles the system, much of this will be automated anyways once in.

I mainly play spellcasters and I would welcome something like this. Why? Because it makes very much sense, and it makes magic much more impactful and meaningful, that it would cost one gold to cast spells because of the expenses associated with the spell components for the spells. It makes the use of magic matter a lot more, it would also mean that spellcasters would have an incentive to require payment for their services, like casting wards, buffs, etc. Especially from a mechanical stand point.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

This has been thrown around before and concluded that it will not be done here.

[Incarnate]

This has been thrown around before and concluded that it will not be done here.

Alright, good to know.

I'm curious, what was the main reasons of that conclusion being reached?

[chad878262]

Alright, good to know.

I'm curious, what was the main reasons of that conclusion being reached?

it's already pretty expensive to be a mage.
melee classes don't pay gold to maintain weapons and armor.
it's not fun to subtract gold every time a spell is cast.

[Incarnate]

Alright, good to know.

I'm curious, what was the main reasons of that conclusion being reached?

it's already pretty expensive to be a mage.
melee classes don't pay gold to maintain weapons and armor.
it's not fun to subtract gold every time a spell is cast.

It makes sense from the angle that it doesn't cost melee classes gold to maintain weapons and armor. But as far as I know, weapons can break in NWN2, can they not?
I wonder though why something like this hasn't been implemented, durability is something that the DnD game has built in.

I would agree that it wouldn't be fun to substract gold every time a spell is memorized, however it also means that with every casting there has to be purpose, and it would make people less likely to just cast about with their spells without care or purpose. Furthermore, it would give players an incentive to charge gold for their services like warding, buffing, etc. Currently they can do it WITHOUT any sort of expense for them - pure profit. But there actually are other ways around this, like for instance having a spell component pouch of various sizes, which basically from a mechanical stand point holds a certain amount of spell points depending on its size, which with each casting the supply gets diminished, where at some point it would have to get restocked or the mage could take another spell component pouch in use.

Yes, it is expensive because new spells costs gold as well - with the exception of those gained at each new level and those found while adventuring. But mages have some clear benefits that melee classes don't have - spellcasting being one, enchanting being another - both can be great sources of income, that can be seriously exponential.

[Lockonnow]

if we sould pay gold for use spells the class souldt be nerf as they have been

[CleverUsername123]

Normally Arcane Spells and even some cleric spell requires spell or focal components to be cast as per fundamental lore in DnD and Forgotten Realms, where the cost and availability of the material component varies, for some spells the cost and availability would make it negligible, but for other spells it would the cost could be high because the availability of the spell components is low or very difficult or even dangerous to get a hold one, which of course affects it rarity. One of the ways this can be handled is by a simplified gold cost for each spell level, so be able to memorize a spell one was required to be able to afford casting the spell at the time of memorizing it, however some specific spells would require more exotic components and would be required.

The Basic formula for the spell's cost was something like: Spell level x # GP's where the number (#) would depend on how and how much the use of magic was. So for instance 5 GP's might be suitable. The above formula could even be revised further: Spell level x modifer x # GP's.

To give an example: Spell level x 5 x 5 GP's would result in:
Spells would cost:
1st: 1x1x5 = 5
2nd: 2x1x5 = 10
3rd: 3x1x5 = 15
..
..
..
9'th: 9x1x5 = 45

So obviously, if the modifier was set to be 5 it would be five times higher, and if certain spells required specific material components, I think it would have the result that spells in general wouldn't just be used just for the sake of using them, it would be used for more important purposes. It would also mean that a certain amount risk is being taken when using a spell, because it would actually affect your coin amount, so it better actually be worth it.

I'm curious to what people think of this, because I think this is worth exploring as it could passively fix some issues that the server is currently facing and lacking a proper solution to deal with effectively, along with making magic a lot more meaningful. One of the things I think it definitely would affect is that magic would be used a lot more thoughtful, which also would affect how often resting would be used. In my opinon it would make magic a lot more immersive. Suddenly reserve feats would suddenly be much more important.

Of course there are both pros and cons to this - so what are your thoughts to this?

Note: If you have nothing constructive to say, then don't post.

Frankly, this is just an awful idea. Needlessly punishes spellcasters, who already tend to struggle to carry loot and suck early on. At low levels, every 5 gold pieces counts, and this will just make it harder for low-level wizards and sorcerers to do anything. It wouldn't make anything more 'thoughtful', 'meaningful', or 'immersive'- in PnP, which you're so fond of throwing at everyone who disagrees with you, there is no gold cost per spell. It makes life harder for primary spellcasters and does absolutely nothing else.

And enchanting isn't even a thing yet, nor will it be any time soon. Weapons don't break in NWN2 either.

[Sun Wukong]

Mundane non-magical iron weapons can actually break in NWN2. My longsword in the original campaign broke when I was bashing the first chest I saw...


Now, as for the gold costs for spells, it would just encourage more loot grinding.

Not to mention that 'grind monkeys' would just switch over to non-magical melee if gold costs ever become significant enough.

And let us not forget about the players who struggle to fill their Wizard spellbooks. Some players just do not know how play their Wizard characters, which prevents them from acquiring new spells, which prevents them form learning to play their wizard characters, which in turn means that even if someone tells them what to do, they still do not have the gold to purchase the necessary scrolls.

It is hard to come up with an actual benefit for universal gold cost for spells.

[Maecius]

As noted, the idea is appreciated, but it probably won't be taken up here.

For everyone's general awareness, we try to (as an overall design philosophy) avoid anything that will make the game feel more like a "chore" for players.

Realism and pen-and-paper mechanics take a backseat here sometimes, but ultimately we want players to feel like their free time here is being (mostly) spent in productive, enjoyable, and meaningful ways.

[NegInfinity]

Some spells already have a gold cost, and a significant one as well. Take a look through your spellbook.

And, yeah, being a wizard(not a "mage") is incredibly expensive.

[niapet]

Okay but then weapons and armor break and have upkeep cost too.