Sorcerer spell selection

[darwin.evenwood]

Hello again!

So in a previous thread i asked about a build, it will be Sorc6/BM6/DragD10/AM8

Focus in Conjuration and Epic Focus in Necromancy.

I will have 2 SLA from AM and thinking to pick Shadow Shield and Premonition since two cast of each would be enough between rests i think.

What about spell selection? Especially level 6-7-8 are very hard to decide!

I planned to pick:

Lvl 6: Bigby 6 - Flesh to Stone - Undeath to Death (would Undeath to death be useful in epics? better to switch for Greater Heroism?)

Lvl 7: Energy Immunity - Ethereal Jaunt - Finger of Death or Solipsism? Or both? very very difficult!

Lvl 8: Gr. Planar Binding - Sunburst - Mass Blindness

Lvl 9: Wail - Dominate Monster - Mords

Suggestions? Toughts about SLAs? Would something better to be switched?

Thanks!

[metaquad4]

Sunburst and Mass Blind are pretty redundant. Since you have epic focus: necromancy, army of the dead might be a prudent pick. Sunburst might be better replaced with create greater undead as well.

You might want to replace dominate monster with bigbys 9, as well. Bigby 6 is ok, but later on bigby 9 can be used against creatures with more STR.

I'd take avasculate instead of finger of death/soliphsism. You'll have a pretty good DC on the stun, and it'll do better damage overall (bosses, and the like, as well as mobs).

Take greater heroism instead of flesh to stone. You can buff your own AB for touch attacks, as well as the AB of your summons and companions.

Might want to consider changing undeath to death for Issac's Greater Missile Storm, too.

I honestly wouldn't bother with greater planar binding, as your character seems more focused towards necromancer and will get far better undead than it will planars (spell focus necromancer increases undead HD). Having the two together will be redundant, something that sorcerers can't really afford with their low spell selection.

[Invoker]

Hello again!

So in a previous thread i asked about a build, it will be Sorc6/BM6/DragD10/AM8

Focus in Conjuration and Epic Focus in Necromancy.

I will have 2 SLA from AM and thinking to pick Shadow Shield and Premonition since two cast of each would be enough between rests i think.

I'd pick Ethereal Jaunt as SLA, and Shadow Shield as spell, personally. Also, Premonition as SLA isn't very attractive for a Sorcerer. Unless you're autoquickened, I'd pick, say, Mirror Images, Displacement or Imp. Invisibility. Especially since your build doesn't seem to have much AC.

What about spell selection? Especially level 6-7-8 are very hard to decide!

I planned to pick:

Lvl 6: Bigby 6 - Flesh to Stone - Undeath to Death (would Undeath to death be useful in epics? better to switch for Greater Heroism?)

As a Sorcerer, I wouldn't very much like to be stuck with a spell like Undeath to Death, which while very, very strong, is not so flexible. Flesh to Stone is very powerful, but none of your Focus Feats is in Transmutation, so it looks like a somewhat counter-intuitive choice. You'd probably be better off with Greater Heroism and Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.

Lvl 7: Energy Immunity - Ethereal Jaunt - Finger of Death or Solipsism? Or both? very very difficult!

Definitely Finger of Death over Solipsism. I'd personally pick Avasculate over Energy Immunity, and keep Energy Buffer up (4th Circle), but that's just me.

Lvl 8: Gr. Planar Binding - Sunburst - Mass Blindness

You focus in Necromancy. Pick Create Greater Undead, not Planar Binding. Sunburst or Mass Blindness, not both. I don't recommend Horrid Wilting either without ASoC, taking Premonition instead.

Lvl 9: Wail - Dominate Monster - Mords

I like Bigby 9 more than Dominate Monster, especially without an Epic Focus in Enchantment. But Dominate Monster isn't a bad pick at all.

[chad878262]

Focus in Conjuration and Epic Focus in Necromancy.

While it certainly 'works' I'm not sure Conjuration is the 'best' secondary school since Necromancy allows you to summon up undead, so no real reason to also summon other stuff. Even if you do, they don't really need the +1 hit dice since you'll have your undead. If you are going for more DC spells consider transmutation, especially since you want Flesh to Stone. Necromancy is fairly easy to defense against so having another DC school with +1 DCs will be of benefit.

Lvl 6: Bigby 6 - Flesh to Stone - Undeath to Death (would Undeath to death be useful in epics? better to switch for Greater Heroism?)

Even as a DC Mage you really aught to consider IGMS. Flesh to Stone is a great save or die against enemies immune to death magic. However, in PvP very few strategies are generally needed outside of Bigby 6, 7 or 9 + Maximized IGMS.

Lvl 7: Energy Immunity - Ethereal Jaunt - Finger of Death or Solipsism? Or both? very very difficult!

Good picks. regarding FoD or Solipism, you've got ESF Necromancy so FoD it is... Solipism is an illusion and whereas FoD can be rendered useless by Deathward or ShadowShield, Solipism can be rendered useless via Protection from Evil or Mindblank.

Lvl 8: Gr. Planar Binding - Sunburst - Mass Blindness

Switch out Gr. Planar Binding for Create Greater Undead (you're a necromancer!) Mass Blindness is actually one of, if not the best illusion spells since PfE/Mindblank won't protect against it. Just a Fortitude Save. One thing to note though is that pretty much all your save or X spells are fortitude saves. Might be good to find a Will save spell in there somewhere. Solipism can fill that void, but I think a better option might be at level 9, see below...

Lvl 9: Wail - Dominate Monster - Mords

Personally, I would go Mass Hold Monster over Dominate Monster, since you really don't need yet another meat shield while Mass Hold Monster is a nice Save or suck will save spell that can effect a huge group. Once a large group of monsters is held you can have your Greater Vampire buddy kill them as they stand there. Of course if you are just trying to have as large an army of companions as possible Dominate Monster will serve as well.

Suggestions? Toughts about SLAs? Would something better to be switched?

Both are great picks to expand your spell list... Though going for Mords to allow you to pick another 9th level spell is really tempting. I would say, for example if you take Mords then you can replace it with Shades, which is better than Premonition. So perhaps go with Mords and Shadow Shield and then pick Shades as one of your 9th level spells.

[darwin.evenwood]

Thank you all! A lot of very useful hints!

Conjuration is there mainly cause I like the cloudkill, web, grease, evard tentacles.

The character is a necromancer but isn’t evil, so I would avoid creating undead and 1HD on the summons still is something good.

Anyway I will think about all your suggestion and will try some different combinations of spells and SLA.

Edit: Sadly I have just found out that isn’t possible to pick Ethereal Jaunt as a SLA... I will have to plan again!

Thanks again!

[Invoker]

Thank you all! A lot of very useful hints!

Conjuration is there mainly cause I like the cloudkill, web, grease, evard tentacles.

Those are some of the most powerful spells in the game, thus I'd say: excellent choice.

Edit: Sadly I have just found out that isn’t possible to pick Ethereal Jaunt as a SLA... I will have to plan again!

Thanks again!

Still?! That was requested...in 2014?! Very surprising. Then you need to determine whether you want to pick Jaunt at 7th Circle, or Etherealness at 9th Circle. I recommend the former, even though the latter definitely has its advantages.

[darwin.evenwood]

Well I have done some tests in Jeg’s and came out with this spell list:

Lvl 1: Exp. Retreat - Grease - Prot. Align. - Ray Enfeeble. - Shield
Lvl 2: Bull - Cat - Invis - Mirror - Web
Lvl 3: Displacement - Haste - IMA - Spiderskin
Lvl 4: Energy Buffer - Enervation - EBT - Fear
Lvl 5: Baleful P. - Bigby 5 - Cloudkill - Lesser SM
Lvl 6: Flesh to Stone - Gr. Hero. - Gr. Spell Breach
Lvl 7: Avasc. - Ethereal J. - FoD
Lvl 8: Gr. Planar - Premonition - Sunburst
Lvl 9: Bigby 9 - Wail - Dominate

SLAs: Shadow Shield, Mordenkainen

Should I switch Gr. Spell Breach with Isaac? I guess a spell breach may be needed other than two occasional Mords, or am I wrong?

Thanks in advance!

[chad878262]

I question Cat's Grace, Fear and Bigby 5. Your also could use some lower level slots to deal with mob trash so maybe one of the Orbs since Conjuration is your secondary focus? Fear is great and all, but is just going to send mobs running away. You want them in a group for your Evards/cloudkill combo, for example. Cat's Grace is good to help with RTA, I suppose, but you don't have all that many and Greater Heroism will already make sure you have a decent RTA. Getting Eagles Splendor is +2 to your spell DCs, +1 over what you can get out of equipment, unless you have a +4 CHA item, you're unlikely to acquire one.

[Hawke]

You need to be careful with some of the spells you selected.

I do not know how high your DCs are going to be, but unless you are investing in skill focus feats (only for sorcerers) then you exercise caution in the number of save vs suck spells you are selecting.

Baleful Polymorph and Flesh to Stone.. while two of my favorite spells, are easily resisted by most mobs in the game because of the fort save. You can afford to have them on a wizard, because you can swap it out any time. On a sorcerer, you are stuck with it.

Also, is avasculate an evil spell here? I do not remember as I usually forgo necromancy spells altogether.

This is what my sorcerer went with. No clouds, but I can see using them. My sorcerer was a shapeshifter (has to be redone because of my misunderstanding of how Augment Form really worked).

Level 1 - 5 - Enlarge Person, Shield, Magic Missile, Reduce Person, Lesser Orb of Acid
Level 2 - 5 - Blind Sight, Animalistic Power, Ice Dart, Invis, ???
Level 3 - 4 - Haste, Improved Mage Armor, Spiderskin, Greater Magic Weapon
Level 4 - 4 - Polymorph, Deez, Stoneskin, Enervation
Level 5 - 4 - Firebrand, Lesser Mind Blank, Teleport, Baleful polymorph (should change)
Level 6 - 3 - Greater Heroism, Greater Missile, Mislead
Level 7 - 3 - Shadow Shield, Energy Immunity, Ethereal Jaunt
Level 8 - 3 - Greater Planar Binding, Polar Ray, ???
Level 9 - 3 - Gate, Shapechange, Mords

Where the questions marks are , are changes that I decided to make. For example, I did have Bulls and Cats (thaumaturge too by the way) but I decided a +1 to AB and AC was worth it, saving a spell slot, plus it would help with HP as well.

And I did have Mind Blank at level 8, but opted for Lesser Mind blank at level 5.

I did choose Baleful Polymorph, but keep in mind the +3 to DC with the Epic Transmutation feat. Which you are not getting.

SLA of Shadow Shield seems to be not worthwhile. Even if the caster level is equal to yours when you click on it, it's gonna last 30 minutes. You get two castings, which you can do by extending it and using it as a level 8 spell. I am sure there are other SLAs to choose from?


The whole point of my spell list is to support 2 Summons and myself. Plus since I am not taking any other metamagic feats than Extend, I have to make certain that all of my spell levels will be used. Have to be used. The last thing anyone wants is to realize they have 5 level 7 spells open and they are all buff spells, and you are already buffed.

[Invoker]

Well I have done some tests in Jeg’s and came out with this spell list:

Lvl 1: Exp. Retreat - Grease - Prot. Align. - Ray Enfeeble. - Shield

I really like your 1st Circle. They are all excellent spells, and the skill ceiling for using them is very high, making them incredibly powerful in the right hands.

Lvl 2: Bull - Cat - Invis - Mirror - Web

I kind of disagree with Bull's and Cat's, while the other three are staple spells. I would instead grab either Cloud of Bewilderment (immensely powerful) or Ice Darts and certainly Blindsight.

Lvl 3: Displacement - Haste - IMA - Spiderskin

IMA? Maybe. Spiderskin? Definitely not, when you have Shadow Shield. Either Flame Arrow or Vampiric Touch (my personal preference, although I'd probably end up with both, and get RInvis at 4th instead of Displacement here).

Lvl 4: Energy Buffer - Enervation - EBT - Fear

Fear is a great combo spell, but a bit hard to use if you didn't play arcanes for years. I'd take Retributive Invisibility as explained above (it displaces you), or Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier if you are more into passive defenses (in this case, you can let go of Shield and pick something different)

Lvl 5: Baleful P. - Bigby 5 - Cloudkill - Lesser SM

I'd pick Firebrand here instead of Baleful Polymorph. I kinda like the others.

Lvl 6: Flesh to Stone - Gr. Hero. - Gr. Spell Breach

This Breach effect is reproduced exactly by Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Flesh to Stone should be IGMS for the kind of mage you are. Superior Resistance is also rather good.

Lvl 7: Avasc. - Ethereal J. - FoD

Love these choices. They'll serve you well. I would have picked Shadow Shield here instead of Avasculate or FoD (your choice).

Lvl 8: Gr. Planar - Premonition - Sunburst

You explained the Planar Binding already .

Lvl 9: Bigby 9 - Wail - Dominate

I like Shadow Simulacrum far more than Dominate Monster, but that's largely a matter of taste and playstyle (I have used both for a very long time, on many characters).

Thanks in advance!

My pleasure. Have fun!

[darwin.evenwood]

I question Cat's Grace, Fear and Bigby 5. Your also could use some lower level slots to deal with mob trash so maybe one of the Orbs since Conjuration is your secondary focus? Fear is great and all, but is just going to send mobs running away. You want them in a group for your Evards/cloudkill combo, for example. Cat's Grace is good to help with RTA, I suppose, but you don't have all that many and Greater Heroism will already make sure you have a decent RTA. Getting Eagles Splendor is +2 to your spell DCs, +1 over what you can get out of equipment, unless you have a +4 CHA item, you're unlikely to acquire one.

I will probably switch Bull and Cat to Animalistic Power. I would like to have that extra help for me and for the summon/dominated using only one spell.
I would like to keep Fear cause I really like the will save on necromancy spell and the summon can bash frightened enemies.
Bigby 5 is there mainly for bosses.
I have a sorcerous power ring so +3 with bonus spells. I spent good money on It and I would like to exploit it!

Lvl 2: Bull - Cat - Invis - Mirror - Web

I kind of disagree with Bull's and Cat's, while the other three are staple spells. I would instead grab either Cloud of Bewilderment (immensely powerful) or Ice Darts and certainly Blindsight.

See above for Ability spells. Not having Empower or Maximize I would avoid damage spells. Is CoB so powerful? Another fortitude save but evocation... I don’t think I will find it useful.

Lvl 3: Displacement - Haste - IMA - Spiderskin

IMA? Maybe. Spiderskin? Definitely not, when you have Shadow Shield. Either Flame Arrow or Vampiric Touch (my personal preference, although I'd probably end up with both, and get RInvis at 4th instead of Displacement here).[/quote]

Spiderskin is there for summons. Maybe Vampiric Touch could be a good one in place of Displacement, which I can get as a SLA 4 times a day.

Lvl 4: Energy Buffer - Enervation - EBT - Fear

Fear is a great combo spell, but a bit hard to use if you didn't play arcanes for years. I'd take Retributive Invisibility as explained above (it displaces you), or Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier if you are more into passive defenses (in this case, you can let go of Shield and pick something different)[/quote]

See above for Fear. Better to learn how to use it than abandon it!

Lvl 5: Baleful P. - Bigby 5 - Cloudkill - Lesser SM

I'd pick Firebrand here instead of Baleful Polymorph. I kinda like the others.[/quote]

Same thing of damaging spells for Firebrand. By the way I have tested Beltyn Burning Blood and it doesn’t break invisibility, may be a nice trick?

Lvl 7: Avasc. - Ethereal J. - FoD

Love these choices. They'll serve you well. I would have picked Shadow Shield here instead of Avasculate or FoD (your choice).[/quote]

Will think about it, even to free a SLA of lower level.

Lvl 9: Bigby 9 - Wail - Dominate

I like Shadow Simulacrum far more than Dominate Monster, but that's largely a matter of taste and playstyle (I have used both for a very long time, on many characters).[/quote]

I thought about Shadow Sim. I am only concerned about the duration compared to Dominate!

Edit: Ok I am not able to use quote properly

[chad878262]

will probably switch Bull and Cat to Animalistic Power. I would like to have that extra help for me and for the summon/dominated using only one spell.
I would like to keep Fear cause I really like the will save on necromancy spell and the summon can bash frightened enemies.
Bigby 5 is there mainly for bosses.
I have a sorcerous power ring so +3 with bonus spells. I spent good money on It and I would like to exploit it!

Fair enough on buffing summons/dominated monsters, I suppose... However, I would say that it isn't really needed to buff them all that much, depending on build. You are a sorcerer and can always replace one if it falls. I don't think you should so easily dismiss having a few damage spells either for those enemies that have death ward/shadow shield/mind blank. Ice Darts is a really good single target damage spell.

See above for Ability spells. Not having Empower or Maximize I would avoid damage spells. Is CoB so powerful? Another fortitude save but evocation... I don’t think I will find it useful.

Would be interested in seeing your feats as I would think any sorcerer would want at least one of the two. Sometimes your save or X spells just aren't going to work and your summons might need some help. A few damage spells on a sorc is a very good backup plan, even if it is not built to be a blaster.

Same thing of damaging spells for Firebrand. By the way I have tested Beltyn Burning Blood and it doesn’t break invisibility, may be a nice trick?

As above, Firebrand is a pretty good AoE direct damage spell and is friendly to your summons/dominated minions. I would also say if Beltyn's Burning Blood doesn't break invisibility on cast that is likely a bug to be fixed. If it is just the DoT it shouldn't break invis, but when you first cast it? That doesn't seem right.

EDIT: And I think IGMS is almost a requirement to have. For PvP and some boss fights it is almost something you can't live without (almost).

[darwin.evenwood]

Fair enough on buffing summons/dominated monsters, I suppose... However, I would say that it isn't really needed to buff them all that much, depending on build. You are a sorcerer and can always replace one if it falls. I don't think you should so easily dismiss having a few damage spells either for those enemies that have death ward/shadow shield/mind blank. Ice Darts is a really good single target damage spell.

I think you are probably right since pretty much everyone is suggesting to pick a couple of damaging spells. At lvl 2 i picked animalistic power and blindsight so i will pick something at higher levels. Firebrand and IGMS probably, switching Baleful (but keeping Flesh to Stone, is too cool and one level higher ) and Gr. Spell Breach.

Would be interested in seeing your feats as I would think any sorcerer would want at least one of the two. Sometimes your save or X spells just aren't going to work and your summons might need some help. A few damage spells on a sorc is a very good backup plan, even if it is not built to be a blaster.

Unfortunately focusing on DC with that build didn't leave me so much choice.

Lvl 1: Spell. Prodigy and Practiced Spell.
lvl 3: Thoughness (Blood Magus)
lvl 6: SF Necromancy
lvl 9: SF Conjuration (Archmage)
lvl 12: Skill Spellcraft (Archmage)
lvl 15: Extend Spell (maybe changing this one? i don't know, having some spells extended is quite mandatory to me, also because i am not the best spellcaster player )
lvl 18: GSF Necromancy.

and that's it.

As above, Firebrand is a pretty good AoE direct damage spell and is friendly to your summons/dominated minions. I would also say if Beltyn's Burning Blood doesn't break invisibility on cast that is likely a bug to be fixed. If it is just the DoT it shouldn't break invis, but when you first cast it? That doesn't seem right.

I remember that i casted it with a wizard some time ago and it didn't break invis even at the spell casting time. Don't have that toon anymore but i will try again with another.

Edit: I managed to use quote properly

[darwin.evenwood]

Finally i will switch to evil alignement and will go with this spell selection.

Lvl 1: Exp. Retreat - Grease - Prot. Align. - Ray Enfeeble. - Shield
Lvl 2: Ice darts - Blindsight - Invis - Mirror - Web
Lvl 3: Displacement - Haste - IMA - Vamp. Touch
Lvl 4: Orb Electricity - Enervation - EBT - Fear
Lvl 5: Firebrand - Bigby 5 - Cloudkill - Lesser SM
Lvl 6: Flesh to Stone - Gr. Hero. - Isaac
Lvl 7: Avasc. - Shadow shield - FoD
Lvl 8: Create Gr. Undead - Premonition - Sunburst
Lvl 9: Bigby 9 - Wail - Sanctuary

SLAs: En. Immunity, Mords

Thank you all for your help!