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 Post subject: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Ok, so I turned Expose Weakness on and got the cool little icon up in my portrait. Very neat! I love it. Yaaaaay!

I switched weapons and the icon stayed up, so I was thinking it is still on.

However, when I went to attack, Expose weakness did not happen. I had to turn it off, then on again.

For each weapon I drew.

I can't remember if it turned off during rest or not.

On the plus side, it doesn't turn off mid-combat as much anymore or turn off in transition as much any more. But now when I change weapons, I'm having to turn it off and then back on again without fail.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:12 am 
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+1, same problem.

Although, it is still pretty wonky, dropping randomly and even had it not land on a critical first flurry.

Biggest issue right now, is playing a sneak, it takes you out of stealth. So, when it drops randomly and you have to reapply it, it gets dangerous.

Finally, the icon showing it active next to your character's portrait still shows active in-spite of it dropping and not working.


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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:12 pm 
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So try to get a couple more details because what you wrote is false in general and I don't know the specifics for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:15 am 
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Valefort wrote:

So try to get a couple more details because what you wrote is false in general and I don't know the specifics for you.


Hey Vale,

I won't speak for the OP, but I hope you aren't taking this personal.
Here are a couple more details for me:

1.) Character dual wields finesse weapons and switches weapons while in stealth (occasionally drops this way)

2.) Character is mixed melee & ranged, switching to Longbow at times (this definitely causes EW to drop, not 100% of the time but majority)

3.) Character is a Ranger Gish and HiPster with several toggles, hide, combat expertise, rapid shot, search, track, all active at different times, sometimes almost all at once (not to mention different spells which add creature skins)

In the video, I saw that you switched melee weapons and that you switched to the same style of melee weapon. Perhaps there were not enough variables there?


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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:58 am 
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Couple things,

Bad Omens wrote:
1.) Character dual wields finesse weapons and switches weapons while in stealth (occasionally drops this way)


EW is applied to the weapon, so switching weapons out probably does have a chance of the script messing up/being lost. I recall when we were testing it was possible to apply EW to two weapons and then dual wield to fire off multiple EW per round. Valefort fixed this, but there are some things in place to prevent exploits which might make changing weapons cause issues.

Bad Omens wrote:
2.) Character is mixed melee & ranged, switching to Longbow at times (this definitely causes EW to drop, not 100% of the time but majority)


Pretty sure EW should always drop when you equip a ranged weapon. It's only supposed to work in melee.

Bad Omens wrote:
Biggest issue right now, is playing a sneak, it takes you out of stealth. So, when it drops randomly and you have to reapply it, it gets dangerous.


My main is a stealth PC with EW so don't take this as a 'you're doing it wrong' so much as just a friendly bit of advice.
- Do not activate EW while in stealth. Just wait until you attack something and activate it after the first flurry before HiPS'ing. EW does not help your sneak attacks at all, because the penalty to AC is a dodge penalty. Sneak Attacks require the enemy to be flanked/flat footed and thus they lose dodge AC (positive or negative) thus nullifying the AC malus when sneak attacking since their Dodge AC is always ZERO. The bleed damage is nice and you want to apply it, but it isn't difficult to attack out of stealth, wait for the end of the first flurry, activate EW and return to auto attacking (or running if you're a hit and run style) until HiPS cooldown expires.

Hope this helps. I'll let Valefort determine what, if anything can be done to further address EW and will test it out myself as well. However, in the mean time there is no real negative to just activating EW at a more opportune time should you determine it has dropped off.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:25 am 
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chad878262 wrote:

Hope this helps. I'll let Valefort determine what, if anything can be done to further address EW and will test it out myself as well. However, in the mean time there is no real negative to just activating EW at a more opportune time should you determine it has dropped off.


Lol, quoting in the wysiwyg editor is time consuming, so I apologize for not taking the same time for the sake of clarity and thank you for your diligent response Chad.

1.) I did get back in and test, dual wielding seems less an issue. I may have perceived a problem because of the new timer delay and my consistent use of HiPs, breaking attack flurries.
It may still need to be tested, but seems rather stable in its updated form.

2.) No doubt, EW is not meant to work with Ranged Weapons but that does lead onto the problem with #3....

3.) Having EW drop, this is not optimal. My characters play style is very fluid, moving between melee and ranged consistently due to combat circumstance. In the current form, you have need to deactivate EW, which breaks stealth, then reactivate EW which breaks stealth (not optimal). Then, when in combat, activating EW breaks your attack (not optimal). You are correct though, the bleed damage is very important to a low damage build like mine and getting it applied early and as often as possible is important, not wanting to lose a round waiting for a flurry to finish before applying.

So, my character uses ranged attack to single out enemies, draw them from mobs and then melee to cut them down. So, when I have a Devil, or Giant, or Salamander coming my way and I stealth, switching to melee, it stinks that EW brings me out of stealth, or that if I apply it once attacking it breaks the attack chain.

In a perfect world, my hopes:

1.) EW does not break stealth (this would really shut me up)
2.) EW does not break attack flurry
3.) EW does not need to be deactivated and then reapplied (why, RP PvP?)
4.) and this is a big one (fingers crossed) EW is made a PASSIVE FEAT not needing to be activated, BOOM!

Anyways, you guys are awesome and thank you for working on all our behalves :!:
Please don't get it twisted, we love everything you do for us ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:57 am 
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Bad Omens wrote:
1.) EW does not break stealth (this would really shut me up)

Not possible unless we go back to the vanilla EW as all custom feats break stealth. This is why a mode was selected to address the issue. Easy to forget EW fix was one of the top bug fixes requested prior to implementing the mode.

Bad Omens wrote:
2.) EW does not break attack flurry

Only possible by making it an activated ability instead of a mode. This is less than optimal since activating it would still break stealth, so you would have to try and get it to fire after your first flurry, which is not optimal as you pointed out.

Bad Omens wrote:
3.) EW does not need to be deactivated and then reapplied (why, RP PvP?)

Exploit prevention. I won't get in to details.

Bad Omens wrote:
4.) and this is a big one (fingers crossed) EW is made a PASSIVE FEAT not needing to be activated, BOOM!

Interesting thought. If it's possible then this may actually be the best solution, since if you have EW there is no reason to have it off. However, my concern would be if the script can work as an always on passive only on melee attacks. If it breaks for whatever reason how would it be reapplied? I would personally not like it if I had to log off and back in or something whenever EW breaks as a passive. If it can be made to work correctly as a passive I'd have no issue with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:46 am 
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Responses in Green:

chad878262 wrote:
Bad Omens wrote:
1.) EW does not break stealth (this would really shut me up)

Not possible unless we go back to the vanilla EW as all custom feats break stealth. This is why a mode was selected to address the issue. Easy to forget EW fix was one of the top bug fixes requested prior to implementing the mode.

Don't worry, no one is talking about going back to the original feat, that is certainly not my desire.

Bad Omens wrote:
2.) EW does not break attack flurry

Only possible by making it an activated ability instead of a mode. This is less than optimal since activating it would still break stealth, so you would have to try and get it to fire after your first flurry, which is not optimal as you pointed out.

Is this the case for other abilities, such as Combat Expertise, Defensive Stance, Rapid Shot, etc.... (those do not break stealth either)

Bad Omens wrote:
3.) EW does not need to be deactivated and then reapplied (why, RP PvP?)

Exploit prevention. I won't get in to details.

Understood

Bad Omens wrote:
4.) and this is a big one (fingers crossed) EW is made a PASSIVE FEAT not needing to be activated, BOOM!

Interesting thought. If it's possible then this may actually be the best solution, since if you have EW there is no reason to have it off. However, my concern would be if the script can work as an always on passive only on melee attacks. If it breaks for whatever reason how would it be reapplied? I would personally not like it if I had to log off and back in or something whenever EW breaks as a passive. If it can be made to work correctly as a passive I'd have no issue with it.

Hey, reach for the stars! I think it is everyone's hopes to create a feat which is optimal for... everybody. Regarding it breaking, I agree but you never know until you try.



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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:55 am 
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Bad Omens wrote:
Is this the case for other abilities, such as Combat Expertise, Defensive Stance, Rapid Shot, etc.... (those do not break stealth either)


Those are vanilla feats, not custom. The issue is you can't make a custom feat without breaking stealth.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 pm 
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Ok, after large bit of testing, this is what I have found.

1) Turning EW on while unarmed. It toggles on, but does not proc unless you are wearing gloves, not bracers. If you are wearing bracers, it does not proc for unarmed strikes. You can, however, switch gloves and it will still work as long as you're wearing gloves.

2) if you turned it on for unarmed and equip a weapon, it often does not proc for the weapon, you have to turn it off and then back on.

3) If you turn it on for a weapon, it now seems to stay for other weapons. Until you do something unarmed, like punch something, then it does not seem to proc reliably when you pull the weapon back out. I was not able to reliably test if you arm, toggle it on, unarm, walk around and do nothing, then rearm the activated weapon, if it turns off or not.

4) it breaks stealth and doesn't work with ranged weapons but we knew that, so... on we go....

5) when you rest, the toggle icon stays on, but it stops procing.

So in short I've found that if you toggle it on while wielding a weapon and simply just switch from melee to melee weapons, it seems to stay on now. This is actually contrary to what I've found earlier, but it's cool.

If you toggle it on when unarmed and draw a weapon, you'll need to turn it off and on and it only works with gloves, not bracers.

If you toggle it on with melee weapons, you'll need to turn it off and on if you want to punch something.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Ok, was able to finally test this:

Turned it on while having a weapon. Worked great. Put it away and punched something with bracers on. No proc as before. Equipped the weapon again. No proc. Had to toggle it off and on.

Turned it on while having a weapon. Worked great. Put it away and punched something with GLOVES on. It proced. Equipped weapon again. It proced.

Equipping a ranged weapon doesn't toggle the mode off, so that when you have toggle it off and on again when getting a melee weapon out it seems.

I was not able to reliably test still if having it toggled on with a weapon and then unequipping wearing only bracers (where it won't proc like it doesn't proc with a ranged weapon) and NOT fighting causes me to have to toggle off/on again. But it would explain some things. This is a big issue for those of us who use the Bracers of Peerless Archer (+4 dex)

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:27 am 
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If you're not using gloves or a melee weapon it will stop yes, there's nothing to put an on hit property on.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Ok, so that I default wear my dex bracers will explain why when I put my weapon away, I have to toggle it off and on every time I take it back out again, like when I equip a ranged weapon. The toggle "stays on" when a ranged weapon or just bracers are equipped, but when I equip a weapon again, it doesn't seem to work even though it says "on"

That bit is a tad annoying, having to turn it off and then on again for switching like that, but not sure what can be done about it.

Other than having to do that because the toggle doesn't drop off when non-EW -able weapons are equipped, the whole thing is pretty nice.

I know the original vanilla form of it just to button mash every 6 seconds was removed, but is it feasible to make the timer a 12 second timer, not 6 seconds, and the bleed like it is now, so that it could be set back to a button-attack ever 12 seconds? It would seem then to me to have the current effect of only 1 proc ever 12 seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:40 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
Bad Omens wrote:
4.) and this is a big one (fingers crossed) EW is made a PASSIVE FEAT not needing to be activated, BOOM!

Interesting thought. If it's possible then this may actually be the best solution, since if you have EW there is no reason to have it off. However, my concern would be if the script can work as an always on passive only on melee attacks. If it breaks for whatever reason how would it be reapplied? I would personally not like it if I had to log off and back in or something whenever EW breaks as a passive. If it can be made to work correctly as a passive I'd have no issue with it.


If this was at all possible that would really be great. I was planning to use the feat on my Transmuter for Shapechange then realized it's targeted ability and abandoned the idea, then found out that it's a toggle, full of hope found someone to test it, then found out it doesn't trigger after polymorphing and I can't activate any feats other than core game combat modes. Think the issue is exactly the same since even barehanded shape changes your weapon into a monster weapon. And since I can't use anything while polymorphed...no EW reactivation.

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Last edited by DiceyCZ on Wed May 16, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Expose Weakness Toggle Issues
Unread postPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:18 am 
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I don't know how some of you are getting EW to stay active after unequipping weapons, and while wearing gloves. My characters EW will always deactivate, every single time, after I put my weapons away, and he always has gloves on.


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