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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:49 am 
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Well, since it has abilities that work based on Turn Undead, I would actually make their regular turn undead attempts automatically fail and ban Divine Might/Shield feats. After all, they focus on channeling Solar stuff, instead of the regular divine favour.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Aren't Solars effectively divine forms? If you're playing an angel-type wouldn't EDM/shield be more consistent with the theme? Just seems ironic a half-orc can build for EDM but not a solar shifter? :naughty:

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:06 am 
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What?

Based on my suggestions, a Half-Orc can go for Solar Channeler. But if you do though, you can no longer use Turn Undead against Undead/Shapeshifters/Outsiders/Vermin or what not based on PRCs or domains, or get the Divine Power/Shield feats.

...

Dedicated Turn Undead user can pretty much freeze mobs still, if not outright slay them.

Now, if you go for a 'EDM' build, you will have enough Turn Undead uses to make most out of Solar's Grace, Solar's Wrath, Epic Divine Might, and Divine Shield based solely on the situation your character is in.

Thus, if it only takes a single feat on 'True Believer' - then your Paladin or Cleric gains a lot more power and flexibility without a cost. Thus, if Solar Channeler kit makes Turn Undead attempts fail, and doesn't allow you to get Divine Might/Shield, it is actually an alternative rather than empowerement and the power of the kit is mitigated by reducing the charisma based synergy it would otherwise have. The higher your charisma, the more uses per day you will have, but the lower your other base stats will be. It is a bit of a double edged blade.

As for builds, the simples way to make use of the kit would be Paladin 18, or Cleric 18. There is not that much of space for other classes. Although, if you go for Fighter 4/Cleric 3, you could open access to the kit earlier. Thus... Fighter 4/Cleric 13, which allows 13 levels to be spent on other classes... Thus... You could actually make a Neutral/Chaotic Good Fighter 12/Cleric 13/Frenzied Berserker 5 that transforms into a solar.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:38 am 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Now, if you go for a 'EDM' build, you will have enough Turn Undead uses to make most out of Solar's Grace, Solar's Wrath, Epic Divine Might, and Divine Shield based solely on the situation your character is in.

Thus, if it only takes a single feat on 'True Believer' - then your Paladin or Cleric gains a lot more power and flexibility without a cost. Thus, if Solar Channeler kit makes Turn Undead attempts fail, and doesn't allow you to get Divine Might/Shield, it is actually an alternative rather than empowerement and the power of the kit is mitigated by reducing the charisma based synergy it would otherwise have. The higher your charisma, the more uses per day you will have, but the lower your other base stats will be. It is a bit of a double edged blade.
That's a good suggestion.
And how about implementing it as a cleric PRC and not a as kit?


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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Human "Cleric 10/Hospitaler 10/Hierophant 10"


Quote, "1. Thankful, unlike yourself, I have tested and did correct math. My math did not include the practiced spellcaster glitch or any Kaedrin upgrades. The highest DC is 44 unless Mage or Wizard using a tieflng, aasimar, or drow." <:D

I made that clear. I just wanted to point that out. Also I meant to type out of Druid and Cleric instead of mage due to fast typing on phone, but that is neither here or there.

Sun Wukong wrote:
With caster clerics, they will be adviced....


Quote, "I use to do edits to the NWN2 wiki, I am well aware of what caster clerics, druids, and mages can get in DCs. However, a caster cleric cannot be both good at melee and casting at the same time. I play clerics a lot. 30 DC is not a problem for that build to save against as Furiona Bellona got a few universal saving items."

Again, I covered this. <:D A caster cleric isn't a problem nor powerful as you claim nor would be a battle cleric. The myth clerics are overpowered are made up by one of two people: People who don't understand the science behind clerics or trying to rub out the competition as they would rather their class be dominated one. Moreover, these myths come about when people poorly misconceive or can't play said class.

You know what would make a cleric overpowered? Being able to cast and fight with both a DC and AB. A cleric with a high spell DC can be knockdown repeatedly. A cleric with high spell DC also may suck as turning undead. (even by your example <:D ) And by your example, a cleric can't be good using divine feats either. Ditto with a battle cleric UNLESS it's a EDM build, BUT THEN THAT EDM BUILD SPELL DC'S SUCKS AND LACKS SPELL LEVELS.

So I say thank you for proving me right.

Sun Wukong wrote:
People have made DC builds from day one of this server. Did you know that Favored Soul used to be considered as a horribly weak class on this server? It was largely because it did not make a great DC builds due to the split between charisma for spells and wisdom for DCs. It took some time until people discovered its melee 'gish' potential. Melee gishes rarely if ever throw DC spells.


LOL! Dude, I made the Death Knight build, which is Wizard-gish build. I will say it again. If you caster cleric, you can't fight due to low strength. I mean you can whack something until it dies, but compared to the damage of weapon master, power attack build, or "gish build." A caster cleric is HORRIBLE both pve and pvp wise. So again, it's all part of the myth created by those who don't understand the class.

FYI, mage gish builds are far more dangerous than clerics due to high DC and unsaveable damage.

Sun Wukong wrote:
DC Cleric AB:


Did you even read what I said? Again already covered. <:D

Sun Wukong wrote:
The Weapon Master build you linked previously can get undispellable AB of 51 with +4 weapon. It would go down to 45 if the build had IPA to increase your damage output to push through caster DR.


Or I can just wield adamantine weapon and bypass it all together. <:D This applies to both pve and pvp wise. If you read the spell info for the DR spells, most of spells require a +5 or adamantine to bypass.

Sun Wukong wrote:
Weapon Master is a horrible class, it requires a ton of feats and only provides +1 AB against critical hit immunity. That is not say it doesn't work against PvE on this server... There are a lot of creatures, mobs, and bosses without critical hit immunity.


Weapon Master is as good of PrC as the classes/PrCs avaibility to it. A Fighter/WM/FB can do a lot of damage, but most servers forbid the combination or in the case of this server, have gotten rid of it completely. If I could get Anointed Knight or Warrior of Darkness unnerfed instead of Divine Champion, it's damage would not only increase, but it would have an advantage over gish builds with a lack spellcasting levels.

WD and AK weren't nerfed because they were too powerful, but because like most servers, misunderstanding how the classes work or what players are capable of. A pure spellcaster or a gish build of at least 26 spellcaster levels have no problem bypassing the SR 41. Not to mention WM/WD or WM/AK types of builds still have to contend with getting high AC item in order to survive a fight.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?286474

Again, I never understand why people are so quick to nerf certain classes, but upgrade others like in the cases of the mage vs. other classes.

Sun Wukong wrote:
Your build cannot score critical hits due to immunity, and it can barely push through the DR, and the saves of it could be far higher.


+9 strength, +4 enchant, +2 item strength bonus, +2 melee feat, and 1-8 longsword damage for a total of 18 to 25. That's not even counting any possible elemental enchant. I mean if were in a server with limited supplies yeah, we would have limited options.

Sun Wukong wrote:
It is an interesting role-play build, I give you that.


I play this the last time I was here and it was easy to roleplay. Like most melee builds, it was only hindered by the available items on the server and enemies WHO HAVE high AB for no reason.

Sun Wukong wrote:
But PvE is not the same thing as PvP against spellcasters.


PvP for melee build comes down to having all their bases covered. A pure class barbarian or fight will die if they are one trick pony, but add a level of another class or two and watch how fast their survivability increases. PvP for caster is hoping you get enough time to buff up and not getting dispelled. No matter what class you cross-class with, these two factors are consistent. With being said, clerics are only bad asses if they manage to buff up and their feats/PrCs/spells aren't nerfed.

Valefort wrote:
Instead of arguing about PvP power, which will never go anywhere, I suggest you think about the requirements of Solar Channeler and what you would deem fitting, with ofc PvE in mind first and foremost :P


True, but again what holds true for pvp for a cleric also holds true in pve. Again everything comes down to have enough time to buff and not getting dispell. I also have to hope my feats, prestiges classes, and spells do not get nerfed, which happens in most cases when no one understands the class. Too many times without thinking, a lot of classes are nerfed out of fear it will imbalance the server.

Sun Wukong wrote:
Well, since it has abilities that work based on Turn Undead, I would actually make their regular turn undead attempts automatically fail and ban Divine Might/Shield feats. After all, they focus on channeling Solar stuff, instead of the regular divine favour.


That's horrible nerf and wouldn't balance anything. You realize Cleric with Solar Channeler means said character is eating up more turn undeads than the usual cleric? Like I said, when there is no understand of how a class work, people demand nerfs.

Clerics have strong undeads, but half the PrCs they can cross with lower their ability to turn undead and cast spells. In the case of the Solar Channeler, they retain both spellcasting and turn undead, but loose their epic level feats. Sure you get levels of Hospitaler, but your spellcasting and turn undead would be lowered. The only use for your turn undead would be Solar Channeler's abilities and possibly EDM.

And even if one went EDM, their spellcasting would suck and they would be no different from a paladin EDM build. I've said this since NWN2 came out, if you're going EDM, go paladin since they get a base attack bonus of 30 and their buffs give them 50ish AB without having to sit in one spot casting a million different buffs to do it like a cleric. Not to mention EDM clerics makes no sense, considering they are horrible at spellcasting, which ironically the paladin is bad at too.

Again, understand how the cleric class plays and what affect it's PrCs has on the class can go along way in trying to establish balance. (NWN or DnD can never be balanced, but you get my point)

I mean if we were trying to really balance the server, we would forbid hybrid combination that allow for dual specialization like gish builds, bards, or remove clerics ability to buff. DnD games are only unbalanced largely due to too many classes being generalist or having too many PrCs that allow for dual specialization.


Last edited by ARHicks00 on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Theodore01 wrote:
That's a good suggestion.
And how about implementing it as a cleric PRC and not a as kit?


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=64887


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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:05 pm 
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ARHicks00 wrote:
Image

Been a while since I've seen so much forum salt.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:
Image

Been a while since I've seen so much forum salt.

You haven't seen my bear warrior bug/suggestion threads have you?

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:
Image

Been a while since I've seen so much forum salt.


ROFL! Why would I feel salty <:D when you got a lot of stuff wrong? (Projection much?) I mean if you want to run a victory lap go ahead. I don't care bro. I just had to correct a lot of misinformation, I often seen posted. Not the first and won't be the last.


Last edited by ARHicks00 on Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Akroma666 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:
Image

Been a while since I've seen so much forum salt.

You haven't seen my bear warrior bug/suggestion threads have you?


My orc upgrade suggestion a year or two back got way more salt than the one Sun Wukong has been truck loading. <:D


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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:31 pm 
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No adamantite weapons on this server. Also there exists a spell called greater sanctuary with makes the cleric untargetable by anything but AOE so they can buff freely if they time their spells to avoid grenades. Knock down is a problem which can lead to a UMD fight thus prolonging the engagement where a cleric has durational AOE effects to tax the WM and gain positioning advantages while regen ticks.

A STR cleric on the other hand just has to buff up and win out melee, can also knockdown with more STR and still has full caster levels. No divine might needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:17 am 
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ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
Human "Cleric 10/Hospitaler 10/Hierophant 10"


Quote, "1. Thankful, unlike yourself, I have tested and did correct math. My math did not include the practiced spellcaster glitch or any Kaedrin upgrades. The highest DC is 44 unless Mage or Wizard using a tieflng, aasimar, or drow." <:D

I made that clear. I just wanted to point that out. Also I meant to type out of Druid and Cleric instead of mage due to fast typing on phone, but that is neither here or there.

The practised spellcaster glitch has been fixed on this server, and as for Kaedrin's content, only a small portion of it has been implemented. This server is its own entity.

Additionally, tiefling and drow are not the most ideal races for a DC based cleric. Cleric uses wisdom as its primary spellcasting ability, and the previously mentioned races sit at a racial modifier of '+0' - I suppose you just mistyped deep gnome as tiefling, and grey orc as drow. It happens.

Moreover, I pointed out how a human cleric could reach the DC of 44 on this server. But I admit that I did not exactly directly spell it out how how Energy Drain can lower a target's saves by 2 or more by draining avarage of 5~ levels. I simply pointed out that your assumption of a maximum DC was incorrect.

As a curious side note: I have my forum posts etched on stone tablets before those are whisked away to the rest of the world by carrier pidgeons.


ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
With caster clerics, they will be adviced....


Quote, "I use to do edits to the NWN2 wiki, I am well aware of what caster clerics, druids, and mages can get in DCs. However, a caster cleric cannot be both good at melee and casting at the same time. I play clerics a lot. 30 DC is not a problem for that build to save against as Furiona Bellona got a few universal saving items."

Again, I covered this. <:D A caster cleric isn't a problem nor powerful as you claim nor would be a battle cleric. The myth clerics are overpowered are made up by one of two people: People who don't understand the science behind clerics or trying to rub out the competition as they would rather their class be dominated one. Moreover, these myths come about when people poorly misconceive or can't play said class.

You know what would make a cleric overpowered? Being able to cast and fight with both a DC and AB. A cleric with a high spell DC can be knockdown repeatedly. A cleric with high spell DC also may suck as turning undead. (even by your example <:D ) And by your example, a cleric can't be good using divine feats either. Ditto with a battle cleric UNLESS it's a EDM build, BUT THEN THAT EDM BUILD SPELL DC'S SUCKS AND LACKS SPELL LEVELS.

So I say thank you for proving me right.

You may click on this link if you want to see the actual post that has been misquoted above.

Previously you spoke of 'AVARAGE spellcasters' - I would be curious to hear about the source of your statistics. Because if you cannot present any, I am forced to presume that your numbers are merely the avarage between a gish and a DC build. As I said previously; this is an incorrect premise to work from.

As for overpowered cleric builds, I have a high wisdom DC-based cleric that currently does 38~ damage per hit in melee with a rather minor list buffs. It can also deal similar damage output in ranged combat. The character is currently at level 22 and additional levels will only increase the damage output, as would a more 'gishy' spell selection. What is worse, I could remake it as something much stronger by simply removing the 'role-play' handicaps when it came to spell, feat, and skill selection. This build of mine is a Rogue 3/Cleric 7/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 10.

As for building a more proper 'GISH & DC based Cleric' - just go for a Grey-Orc Cleric 15/Frenzied Berserker 5/Hierophant 10. Grey-Orcs get racial +2 strength and wisdom - and the clerical spell list makes sure that you are not exactly lacking in AB or damage if you choose to pump up wisdom.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
People have made DC builds from day one of this server. Did you know that Favored Soul used to be considered as a horribly weak class on this server? It was largely because it did not make a great DC builds due to the split between charisma for spells and wisdom for DCs. It took some time until people discovered its melee 'gish' potential. Melee gishes rarely if ever throw DC spells.


LOL! Dude, I made the Death Knight build, which is Wizard-gish build. I will say it again. If you caster cleric, you can't fight due to low strength. I mean you can whack something until it dies, but compared to the damage of weapon master, power attack build, or "gish build." A caster cleric is HORRIBLE both pve and pvp wise. So again, it's all part of the myth created by those who don't understand the class.

FYI, mage gish builds are far more dangerous than clerics due to high DC and unsaveable damage.

And what is this 'Death Knight' build of yours? Would you like to present it? I am asking simply because the chances are that it might work that well on this server.

But anyhow, let us look at the damage that any DC based cleric can get on this server:
1d8 (Morning Star)
+ 1d6 (Fire, from a morningstar Called Blessed Weave)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 5 (Strength modifier, base 14, +6 from Divine Power)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 2 (Righteous Might)
+ 1d6 (Aura versus Alingment)
+ 1 (Align Weapon)
= 27.5~ (Damage an avarage hit)

That damage per hit is not that different from what the typical one handed frenzied weapon master gets:
1d6 (Scimitar)
+ 10 (Strength, with +3 item)
+ 8 (Feats)
+ 4 (Weapon Enchantment Bonus)
= 25.5

The reason I did not add the 'Enhanced Imprower Power Attack' above is because on this server there are areas where you need to put up that tower shield and turn on your Improved Combat Expertise. Otherwise lingering in the said area becomes a lesson of what it means to be a glass cannon.

As for DC based clerics, there are PRCs such as Silverstar of Selune, Darkfire Disciple, and
Stormlord of Talos that provide additional melee damage to any DC based cleric. Not to mention that there are cleric domains that also increase the damage per hit, such as Strength and Fury domains.

It is harder to kill a cleric than a frenzied weapon master, who by the way, have rubbish saves without UMD consumables, which can be easily dispelled on this server.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
DC Cleric AB:

Did you even read what I said? Again already covered. <:D

You may want to refer back to your previous stament about making forum posts on a phone, and the many errors it might produce.

And no, I would not go as far and say that you had DC based cleric covered. Based on the numbers you presented, you used some kind of imaginary 'avarage spellcaster' of yours.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
The Weapon Master build you linked previously can get undispellable AB of 51 with +4 weapon. It would go down to 45 if the build had IPA to increase your damage output to push through caster DR.

Or I can just wield adamantine weapon and bypass it all together. <:D This applies to both pve and pvp wise. If you read the spell info for the DR spells, most of spells require a +5 or adamantine to bypass.

This server does not have adamantine weapons and the only way to get better than +4 enchantment bonus on weapons, is through spells.

As for 'X/magic' damage reduction in NWN2, generally speaking, a '+1 EB' weapon is enough to go through it. This is easily tested in Vordan's Hero creator. It is possible to change it to be more like NWN1 where magic damage reduction is tiered based on the enchantment bonus, but by default, '+1 EB' weapons are enough.

Anyhow, on this server unless the DR is Cold Iron or Alchemical Silver based, there is no easy way around it. You have to deal more damage than what the creature has DR. Now, uncapped physical DR of 10 or 20 is not unheard of on this server - and there are feats that allow melee characters to power through. But if you refer to the earlier comment of mine about the DC cleric damage output, you might notice that a majority of it is not blocked by physical damage reduction. Imagine that.

Oh, and the only way to get adamantium weapons on this server is monk 16.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
Weapon Master is a horrible class, it requires a ton of feats and only provides +1 AB against critical hit immunity. That is not say it doesn't work against PvE on this server... There are a lot of creatures, mobs, and bosses without critical hit immunity.

Weapon Master is as good of PrC as the classes/PrCs avaibility to it. A Fighter/WM/FB can do a lot of damage, but most servers forbid the combination or in the case of this server, have gotten rid of it completely. If I could get Anointed Knight or Warrior of Darkness unnerfed instead of Divine Champion, it's damage would not only increase, but it would have an advantage over gish builds with a lack spellcasting levels.

WD and AK weren't nerfed because they were too powerful, but because like most servers, misunderstanding how the classes work or what players are capable of. A pure spellcaster or a gish build of at least 26 spellcaster levels have no problem bypassing the SR 41. Not to mention WM/WD or WM/AK types of builds still have to contend with getting high AC item in order to survive a fight.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?286474

Again, I never understand why people are so quick to nerf certain classes, but upgrade others like in the cases of the mage vs. other classes.

You can make a frenzied weapon master on this server. There is no rule against it and both classes are there if you just get the feats and BAB for both. There are a ton of Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserkers here. Go ahead, roll one, and feel the struggle for that Epic scimitar everyone wants to get their hands on.

As for the 'nerfs' done to Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness, the issue of spell resistance is first and foremost a PvE one. With high enough spell resistance the mobs just stop casting their spells. Which means that a number of players will soon complain that the server is not challenging enough, which results in mob casters that have higher caster level and generally more spells to fling and/or orbs that ignore spell resistance and deal direct damage that can score a critical hit. This is an easy way to make a server 'impossible to play' unless you have a specific PRC in your character build.

The second issue with the Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness as implemented by Kaedrin is that he made the spell resistance 11 + HD. In PnP, it is just stock 20. The low spell resistance of 20 has its uses on this server, believe it or not. But were it added, I imagine that people would still demand it to be raised higher and they would not be that happy to raise it with those 'Epic Spell Resistance' feats, which takes us back to the first point.

As the third point, yes there are the potential PvP concerns. This is an old server, the drow used to be on the surface, and spell resistance does give a mechanical advantage in PvP. After all, in order to overcome it, you need to get those Spell Penetration feats, or cast Assay Resistance, or spam Breaches and Mords, which in a 'sun elf wizard' against 'dark elf wizard' fight favours the drow.

And finally, just buy a cloak of Shimmering if you want 32 spell resistance. (Which is a ton of spell resistance when it comes to the clear majority of surface spellcasters.)

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
Your build cannot score critical hits due to immunity, and it can barely push through the DR, and the saves of it could be far higher.

+9 strength, +4 enchant, +2 item strength bonus, +2 melee feat, and 1-8 longsword damage for a total of 18 to 25. That's not even counting any possible elemental enchant. I mean if were in a server with limited supplies yeah, we would have limited options.

DR of 20/-, critical hit immunity, have fun dealing 0 to 5 points of damage per hit, about 2-3 points per avarage hit before your elemental damage is added.

Now, there are many areas where mobs do not have such high DR, where you are not up against critical hit immunity, and Elemental Shield spell on top of it all. But there are areas where any DC based cleric will out do your build.

DC based clerics can make use of UMD as well.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
It is an interesting role-play build, I give you that.

I play this the last time I was here and it was easy to roleplay. Like most melee builds, it was only hindered by the available items on the server and enemies WHO HAVE high AB for no reason.

The reason for the high AB, and the other 'silly' aspects of BGTSCC mobs, is to provide an actual challenge to a large variety of powerbuilds without making the server impossible to play. It is not perfect, but it is what it is, and it is not that bad once you understand this server's quirks.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
But PvE is not the same thing as PvP against spellcasters.

PvP for melee build comes down to having all their bases covered. A pure class barbarian or fight will die if they are one trick pony, but add a level of another class or two and watch how fast their survivability increases. PvP for caster is hoping you get enough time to buff up and not getting dispelled. No matter what class you cross-class with, these two factors are consistent. With being said, clerics are only bad asses if they manage to buff up and their feats/PrCs/spells aren't nerfed.

Clerics can have the same items any frenzied weapon master can, hence greatly reduce the number of necessary buffs. Thus it is just one spell and they are immune to critical hits and have DR, and so on, and so on.

Not to mention that there is only one rule in PvP, the victor is always determined by the willingness to waste gold in UMD.


ARHicks00 wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
Well, since it has abilities that work based on Turn Undead, I would actually make their regular turn undead attempts automatically fail and ban Divine Might/Shield feats. After all, they focus on channeling Solar stuff, instead of the regular divine favour.

That's horrible nerf and wouldn't balance anything. You realize Cleric with Solar Channeler means said character is eating up more turn undeads than the usual cleric? Like I said, when there is no understand of how a class work, people demand nerfs.

Clerics have strong undeads, but half the PrCs they can cross with lower their ability to turn undead and cast spells. In the case of the Solar Channeler, they retain both spellcasting and turn undead, but loose their epic level feats. Sure you get levels of Hospitaler, but your spellcasting and turn undead would be lowered. The only use for your turn undead would be Solar Channeler's abilities and possibly EDM.

And even if one went EDM, their spellcasting would suck and they would be no different from a paladin EDM build. I've said this since NWN2 came out, if you're going EDM, go paladin since they get a base attack bonus of 30 and their buffs give them 50ish AB without having to sit in one spot casting a million different buffs to do it like a cleric. Not to mention EDM clerics makes no sense, considering they are horrible at spellcasting, which ironically the paladin is bad at too.

Again, understand how the cleric class plays and what affect it's PrCs has on the class can go along way in trying to establish balance. (NWN or DnD can never be balanced, but you get my point)

I mean if we were trying to really balance the server, we would forbid hybrid combination that allow for dual specialization like gish builds, bards, or remove clerics ability to buff. DnD games are only unbalanced largely due to too many classes being generalist or having too many PrCs that allow for dual specialization.

You know, I could shred your paragraphs apart one by one, but I have already wasted enough on your salt mine of a post. Have a nice day.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:32 pm 
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I should also add to lord Danky Kang and I's argument (and so arhicks00 is aware) that evasion was nerfed to no longer work in hev/med armour. All in the context of cleeical power, prc and kits ofc.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Talking about the polymorph effect Channel Solar, could you unlock the inventory sheet when polymorphing? I'm pretty sure it's possible technically. Though even you can open your inventory while polymorphed, you can only do a little things such like drinking potions. But it's better than nothing. And I think you can still drink when you shifted to a solar or some other human-like forms.

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 Post subject: Re: Solar Channeler
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:58 pm 
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spyvsspy wrote:
Talking about the polymorph effect Channel Solar, could you unlock the inventory sheet when polymorphing? I'm pretty sure it's possible technically. Though even you can open your inventory while polymorphed, you can only do a little things such like drinking potions. But it's better than nothing. And I think you can still drink when you shifted to a solar or some other human-like forms.


Drinking potions, using wands, etc. Are not little things. Item usage is one of the most powerful tactics in nwn2.

I'm unsure if its technically possible, but I shouldn't think we want to do it. That removes a shapeshifting character's big weakness (lack of item usage). And if its available for Solar, it would/should be availible for other sapient forms.

For the IC side: When you polymorph, your items are ICly merged into your new body (certain magical effects stay on you as per the rules of the kind of shapeshifting).

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