Tenser and Polymorphing

[Rudolph]

How exactly does Tenser's Transformation work together with Polymorph/Shapechange? I realize this question came up briefly in the discussion around the new polymorph features, but wanted to bring it into focus since much is still unclear and it all matters hugely to joyful optimizers like myself.

Question 1): It was suggested in said discussion that the two CAN be combined. Tenser prevents spellcasting, so this implies that using the polymorph feat does not count as casting a spell and that one can thus shapechange after casting Tenser and getting its benefits. Is that so? Hopefully yes.

Question 2) assumes the answer to the above question is yes: the Tenser AB bonus is 30 - BAB at the point of casting. Augment Form raises BAB once the polymorph feat is used. Does the Tenser AB bonus adapt to this? I.e. does it get reduced accordingly?

Question 3): are any changes (i.e. nerfs) planned with regard to Tenser and Polymorph in the foreseeable future? Due to the no more than 20 AB cap, I don't see it as obviously overpowered even if the answer to question 2) is no, but in any case it would be good to know.

[Hawke]

You cannot use them together.

If you cast shapeshift on your PC, then cast Tensors, and then use the feat shift shape... it will not allow you to select a form.

I know this because I just tested it on the server 20 seconds ago.

[Rudolph]

You cannot use them together.

Oh no. There go many ideas for dedicated shifters with viable AB...

[Steve]

A Sorcerer (9), Dragonslayer (10), Archmage (8), Paladin (3) using Augmented Form can net you CL 30 + 26 BAB when shifted (thanks to Augmented Form!).

A Sorcerer (7), Eldritch Knight (10), Dragonslayer (10), Paladin (3) has natural 26 BAB but only CL 26 (and you can be dispelled out of Shapechange!).

There are other ways to get viable AB as well!!!

[Rudolph]

Mmh. Viable for me means at least 45 AB - since with less I can do better as a non-polymorphed gish.

[spyvsspy]

A Sorcerer (9), Dragonslayer (10), Archmage (8), Paladin (3) using Augmented Form can net you CL 30 + 26 BAB when shifted (thanks to Augmented Form!).

A Sorcerer (7), Eldritch Knight (10), Dragonslayer (10), Paladin (3) has natural 26 BAB but only CL 26 (and you can be dispelled out of Shapechange!).

There are other ways to get viable AB as well!!!

How does Augment Form calculate? Simply change all the low bab classes to medium bab? If so Sorc9/AM8 should lose 5bab and the final bab is 25 after polymorph.


My quesstion is, are all of the classes calculated separated? For example, 10Wiz/10AM/10EK has a total level of 20 in low bab classes. If calculate as a whole, the bab should be 25 after polymorph. But if calculate separated, the bab should be 24 as 10Rogue/10Bard/10Fighter.


Oh one last thing. I don't have a high level wizard to test. Will the weapon properties merge into [Shapechange] forms which have weapons? In the form list, all forms with weapons in Polymorph category are marked as "Weapon Enchantment carries over" while all forms with weapon in Shapchange category not.

[Hawke]

Weapon properties that change with shape are the damage stuff like d4 fire and vampiric Regen, but only if you are in a form that uses a melee weapon.

Enhancement bonuses I do not think carry over and greater magic weapon does not carry over either.

[Sun Wukong]

How does Augment Form calculate? Simply change all the low bab classes to medium bab? If so Sorc9/AM8 should lose 5bab and the final bab is 25 after polymorph.

Sorcerer 9/Archmage 8 would have 12 BAB, (6, and 6).

Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 10/Blood Magus 4 would have 21 BAB, (4, 7, 7, and 3)

Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 1/Blood Magus 1 would have 4 BAB, (4, 0, and 0)

If you want the most BAB out of low BAB classes with Augment Form, you need to have 4 levels for 3 BAB, 8 levels for 6 BAB, 12 levels for 9 BAB, 16 levels for 12 BAB, 20 levels for 15 BAB, 24 for 18 BAB, 28 for 21 BAB.

Does that help?

[Rudolph]

Weapon properties that change with shape are the damage stuff like d4 fire and vampiric Regen, but only if you are in a form that uses a melee weapon.

Enhancement bonuses I do not think carry over and greater magic weapon does not carry over either.

Enhancement bonuses carry over (tested it), but not temporary ones (as per wiki), which actually get removed from the weapon.

My question is re. Vampirism: if it is part of the chosen shape's weapon and on the original weapon, do the two add up?

[Hawke]

What form has vamp regen?

[Sun Wukong]

Frost Giant. And only the highest weapon property applies.

[spyvsspy]

How does Augment Form calculate? Simply change all the low bab classes to medium bab? If so Sorc9/AM8 should lose 5bab and the final bab is 25 after polymorph.

Sorcerer 9/Archmage 8 would have 12 BAB, (6, and 6).

Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 10/Blood Magus 4 would have 21 BAB, (4, 7, 7, and 3)

Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 1/Blood Magus 1 would have 4 BAB, (4, 0, and 0)

If you want the most BAB out of low BAB classes with Augment Form, you need to have 4 levels for 3 BAB, 8 levels for 6 BAB, 12 levels for 9 BAB, 16 levels for 12 BAB, 20 levels for 15 BAB, 24 for 18 BAB, 28 for 21 BAB.

Does that help?

Yes the same as I thought, the BAB calculation is seperated by class.

And I have a new question. Will the combat module such like Northlander Hweling or One Weapon still functional if I turn them on before polymorphing?

[Sun Wukong]

Nope.