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 Post subject: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:55 am 
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A mechanical tweaking of the first 3 levels of base classes and PrCs to remove the need for the 3by20 rule. The main benefit of this being that DMs will no longer have to monitor players to see if they're obeying the 3by20 rule. A secondary benefit is allowing for more freedom in building without significantly changing the power balance.

The tweaks push the main benefits of each class to level 3. Players are free to take only one or two levels in a class, but it won't be beneficial to their build. Class bonus feats obtained at class level 3 and under will draw from a secondary, non-epic feat list. After level 3, class bonus feats switch back to the normal list. Class levels 1 & 2 can be role played as the "training" period where characters are gradually learning the basics rather than starting off as "natural" warriors, wizard, rogues, clerics, etc. This tweak only affects classes and does not change general feat selection at level 1.

Potential flaws with these tweaks:
1. Skills gains (I think) are hard coded. Players could potential abuse the rogue/bard base class to maximize skills during epic levels.
2. New players will have more difficulty with less power during character levels 1 & 2. This can be addressed by adding a script to the nexus NPCs. Players with less than 100 total XP will receive enough XP to reach character level 3 after exiting the Nexus.
3. Pre-existing characters that don't already have 3 levels in each class may be adversely affected.
4. Players may be able to dip into spell casting classes for scrolls. A custom feat or script will be necessary to ensure scroll failure if player doesn't have at least 3 levels in a spell casting base class.

Original discussion topic that lead to this idea can be found here.

Update 4/12/2018: Added scroll casting flaw.
Update 4/14/2018: Clarified that the tweak doesn't change general feat selection.

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Last edited by Daimondheart on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:56 am 
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Base Class Examples

Fighter
Hidden: show
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Light), Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Medium), Weapon Proficiency (Martial), Shield Proficiency
Level 3: Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Tower Shield Proficiency, 2 X Non-Epic Fighter Bonus Feat
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

Rogue
Hidden: show
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Light), Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Rogue)
Level 3: Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense (-1), Sneak Attack (+2d6)
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

Cleric
Hidden: show
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Light), Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Level 3: Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Shield Proficiency, Spontaneous Conversion, Turn Undead, 2 X Domain Selection?
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

Druid
Hidden: show
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Light), Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Level 3: Weapon Proficiency (Druid), Shield Proficiency, Spontaneous Conversion, Animal Companion, Nature Sense
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

Wizard
Hidden: show
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Wizard), General School?
Level 2:
Level 3: School Selection?, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

PrC Examples

Divine Champion
Hidden: show
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Simple)
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Martial)
Level 3: Lay on Hands, Sacred Defense, Smite Infidel, Non-Epic Divine Champion Bonus Feat
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

Pale Master
Hidden: show
Spells per Day/Spells Known: 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10
Level 1:
Level 2:
Level 3: Bone Skin, Animate Dead, Darkvision
Level 4 and on: Normal progression

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:45 am 
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I don't know... it just feels awkward to force a level one fighter to use simple weapons and light armor, and then make him buy medium armor and martial weapon at level two, and so on.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:40 am 
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wellcome back 1 lvl dips for skills and scrolls access


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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:24 am 
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This would invalidate a ton of builds, many rely on getting some key feats immedtiately.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:43 am 
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Why, though?

That's basically an entire overhaul of the game, not just the classes. Areas, quests, PRCs, etc. would all need to be revamped.

There is not enough potential upside to this suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:03 am 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
I don't know... it just feels awkward to force a level one fighter to use simple weapons and light armor, and then make him buy medium armor and martial weapon at level two, and so on.
Does it makes more sense for a level 1 newbie fighter to instantly have all the knowledge and experience he needs to wield the majority of weapons and all shields while also being prepared to combat in the heaviest of armor without any prior combat experience?

Born2BeWild wrote:
wellcome back 1 lvl dips for skills and scrolls access
Ouch. I noted the skills but completely forgot about scroll dips. I'm guessing that's hard coded as well. Would it be possible to create a feat that activates 100% spell failure on scrolls if the character doesn't have at least 3 class levels in Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc?

Valefort wrote:
This would invalidate a ton of builds, many rely on getting some key feats immedtiately.
How so? The current rule require 3 levels in each class by 20. By class level 3 under this system, you'll have the same feats and abilities that you have now at class level 3. Plus they would now have until 30 to get those 3 classes. That's a lot more wiggle room.

Planehopper wrote:
Why, though?

That's basically an entire overhaul of the game, not just the classes. Areas, quests, PRCs, etc. would all need to be revamped.

There is not enough potential upside to this suggestion.
No it isn't. Only class levels 1, 2, & 3 will change. All other class levels stay the same. And class level 3 under this system is no more powerful than class level 3 under the current rules. Unless I'm missing something, only base classes & PrCs need to be changed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:39 am 
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Daimondheart wrote:
Does it makes more sense for a level 1 newbie fighter to instantly have all the knowledge and experience he needs to wield the majority of weapons and all shields while also being prepared to combat in the heaviest of armor without any prior combat experience?


A level 1 Fighter (or any other class) represents years of initial training. Fighters hone their skill at arms and armor as well as fighting style (Feats), Rogues spend their time gaining skill in multiple area's (not all thievery based), Bards learn instruments, minor spell casting, parlor tricks, etc. Wizards learn spells, Clerics pray and learn to become closer to their patron deity gaining spells, etc. etc. etc. Level 1 does not represent 'total newbie' it represents a fully trained and competent individual, otherwise it would be a Commoner... The increases from level ups represent the knowledge and real world experience that enhances and provides for better application of the base training. Thus level 1 represents exactly the prior experience of learning how to wear heavy armor...


Just seems to be a lot of work to address a concern around your specific build that doesn't meet 3b20 rule. There is no pnp or server lore basis or mechanical reason to apply such a change when there are so many other things that could be done with that time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:13 am 
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some of my favorite builds have a synergy with other classes that are only possible when you get a first or second level feat then move to another class because a twist in synergy allowed for it. you actually want most what is at level 4 or 6 of the class, but complex mapping of the build allows for you to use that first level feat to grab up a needy prc early and that gives a synergy at level 9 to the final very feat heavy prc you want in the end, you can grab it at 18 right before the 3b20 rule.

those kinds of builds make my eyes sparkle and are as much art as anything we see in the this game to me.

dont take away my art. my inspiration. my love

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:01 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
Just seems to be a lot of work to address a concern around your specific build that doesn't meet 3b20 rule.
I'm sure there are a lot of players that have wanted to do builds that were hindered by the 3by20 rule, and, like mine, were not power builds by any stretch. However, that's not the only benefit.
Daimondheart wrote:
The main benefit of this being that DMs will no longer have to monitor players to see if they're obeying the 3by20 rule.
I'd say this benefit alone warrants looking into the idea. I'm sure every DM would appreciate not having to check characters to confirm whether the build is following the rule. "Building" the rule into the mechanics is a far better alternative.
chad878262 wrote:
There is no pnp or server lore basis or mechanical reason to apply such a change when there are so many other things that could be done with that time.
By that logic, many of the changes and custom content now available on BG should never have been done. You're also not realizing this change would save a LOT of time in the future. It's one less task for the DMs to waste time on.
aaron22 wrote:
some of my favorite builds have a synergy with other classes that are only possible when you get a first or second level feat then move to another class because a twist in synergy allowed for it. you actually want most what is at level 4 or 6 of the class, but complex mapping of the build allows for you to use that first level feat to grab up a needy prc early and that gives a synergy at level 9 to the final very feat heavy prc you want in the end, you can grab it at 18 right before the 3b20 rule.

those kinds of builds make my eyes sparkle and are as much art as anything we see in the this game to me.

dont take away my art. my inspiration. my love
Creativity flourishes at its best when it's confronted by less restrictions. There is no build you can make under 3by20 that can't also be made under Power at 3. You will also now have more opportunities to be creative.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:46 pm 
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There are plenty of builds you can't made with that rule as aaron and me previously said, some builds rely on the early gain of some key feats to qualify for some PRCs on time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 pm 
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You've said that but you haven't actually listed any yet. What builds are they?

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:04 am 
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builds that got lvl 3 cleric for divine might and shield, with power at 3 you need at least 4 levels of cler for divine migh/shield combo


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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 am 
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You say that as if it's a bad thing. That would actually balance Clerics out with Paladins and Blackguards. Considering the complaints I've heard over the years about Clerics, it's nice to know I've unintentionally come up with a solution that no only balances them but requires more devotion to obtain divine abilities. That's not hindering building, that's hindering power building, which is what 3by20 is supposed to do.

That aside, it can be fixed in one of two ways if balancing Clerics is not desired. Clerics can obtain Turn Undead at class level 2 instead of 3 or Divine Shield & Might can be changed where the requirement is only the Turn Undead & Power Attack and not have to be taken as a Cleric, Paladin, or Blackguard.

The same adjustment can be made to other feats that also require the class to be selected for the level up when selecting the feat. The real problem you want addressed is that you want access to those feats without having to take more than 3 levels in the class that requires them.

Update 4/13: Forgot about the power attack requirement.

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Last edited by Daimondheart on Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:34 am 
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Um, only paladins require 4 levels, Blackguards require only 3 to get both, though with the suggested rule they'd need 4 of course.

Clerics aren't at the top of the heap and require no nerfs.

Some people do not quest and I still haven't seen a valid reason to completely remove 2 levels from play. I can't imagine starting a new PC at level 1 with no knowledge of the server and finding out I don't get my feats/powers/whatever until level 3. It's really unfair to those who want to experience the very early game.

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