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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:37 am 
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Even if this change won't hurt current builds, it creates a lot of new cheese builds. Considering how much time BG team need to spend on that changes i don't feel it worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:41 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
Um, only paladins require 4 levels, Blackguards require only 3 to get both, though with the suggested rule they'd need 4 of course.
I said it would balance them out. I didn't say anything about Blackguards currently needing 4 levels.
chad878262 wrote:
Clerics aren't at the top of the heap and require no nerfs.
I was including my past experience on other servers, but I did forget that BG has stricter requirements on portfolio selections.
chad878262 wrote:
Some people do not quest and I still haven't seen a valid reason to completely remove 2 levels from play. I can't imagine starting a new PC at level 1 with no knowledge of the server and finding out I don't get my feats/powers/whatever until level 3. It's really unfair to those who want to experience the very early game.
Daimondheart wrote:
2. New players will have more difficulty with less power during character levels 1 & 2. This can be addressed by adding a script to the nexus NPCs. Players with less than 100 total XP will receive enough XP to reach character level 3 after exiting the Nexus.

Born2BeWild wrote:
Even if this change won't hurt current builds, it creates a lot of new cheese builds. Considering how much time BG team need to spend on that changes i don't feel it worth it.
Please list them. What cheese builds are you worried about under this new system? There might be adjustments we can figure out here ahead of time. That would just leave the implementation to the staff. And don't forget the biggest pay off: less wasted time for DMs.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:44 am 
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Daimondheart wrote:
You've said that but you haven't actually listed any yet. What builds are they?


first of all, i do not know all of these yet. but i do look forward to more eureka moments when i unlock a new synergy that opens something that i did not think could be opened.

one that jumps out to me is Eldrich Knight and Blood Mage getting SF concentrate at 1 that allows you to jam in two good perks (BM) in your first level an quickly transition to ASoC to work toward qualing for the last PrC that may be pretty req heavy, like AM, before getting to that 16th/18th level. depending on when you wanna finish up your BM levels.

there are more synergies like this. this is one of the most obvious.

another one that i really liked was SB/Due/Tem/WM. on a +1ECL race it is harder to get the feats for all of these without perfect planning.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:56 am 
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Daimondheart wrote:
2. New players will have more difficulty with less power during character levels 1 & 2. This can be addressed by adding a script to the nexus NPCs. Players with less than 100 total XP will receive enough XP to reach character level 3 after exiting the Nexus.


So your answer is to simply remove levels 1 and 2 from the equation? What about players that just want to play from 1 to 30? Not saying it takes very long to get from 1 to 3... When I formed up a group I'm pretty sure we did it in the first session (~2.5 hours of adventuring IIRC). However, that was still a part of the story and would be unfortunate to simply remove it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:14 pm 
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An FS 27/cleric 3 with divine might and divine shield is not doable with your system, it needs turn undead right at cleric level 1, not 3, as divine might and shield can only be taken on turn undead giving class levels.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:18 am 
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aaron22 wrote:
one that jumps out to me is Eldrich Knight and Blood Mage getting SF concentrate at 1 that allows you to jam in two good perks (BM) in your first level an quickly transition to ASoC to work toward qualing for the last PrC that may be pretty req heavy, like AM, before getting to that 16th/18th level. depending on when you wanna finish up your BM levels.
These builds are still possible under the mechanic change. Your only issue is that now you have to take three levels of EK/BM before moving on to ASoC. If you're a wizard, you take your first EK/BM at 6 (+1 for Sorcerers) once you obtain your 3rd level spells. Your last level in the first PrC is at 8 (+1), giving you the skill synergy to take your first level of ASoC at 9 (+1). You then get the starting skills of ASoC at 11 (+1), leaving you 9 (-1) levels before epic & 10 epic levels to work in the last PrC of your choice. Is the build slightly inconvenience by the change? Yes, but also very well compensated with more room to build after 20.
aaron22 wrote:
another one that i really liked was SB/Due/Tem/WM. on a +1ECL race it is harder to get the feats for all of these without perfect planning.
I'm confused. How is this build anymore difficult? I popped into the character creator on BG and none of the PrCs grant feats in the first 3 class levels that make obtaining any of the other PrCs easier. Furthermore, Weapon Master requires +5 BAB and Duelist & Tempest require +6 BAB. Since your base class is a Swashbuckler, the earliest you can hope to start would be level 7 as a Duelist regardless of your race. Since WM requires 6 feats and Tem essentially requires 5 (You need two-weapon fighting before you can get the improved version.), you can't meet either of their requirements. And since you'll have to take 6 levels of Swashbuckler anyway, it doesn't really matter if the feats in the first 3 class levels are pushed to 3.
chad878262 wrote:
So your answer is to simply remove levels 1 and 2 from the equation? What about players that just want to play from 1 to 30? Not saying it takes very long to get from 1 to 3... When I formed up a group I'm pretty sure we did it in the first session (~2.5 hours of adventuring IIRC). However, that was still a part of the story and would be unfortunate to simply remove it.
Make it optional, then. The Nexus NPCs can ask if they would like a starting boost. If the player wants to RP the first two levels, I doubt they'll complain about it being harder. Those players will be more inclined to RP anyway and will most likely hit level 2 on their first day from socializing alone thanks to the RP ticker.
Valefort wrote:
An FS 27/cleric 3 with divine might and divine shield is not doable with your system, it needs turn undead right at cleric level 1, not 3, as divine might and shield can only be taken on turn undead giving class levels.
As one of my business professors would say, "You're a day late and a dollar short." This issue was already addressed. You can either bump Turn Undead to Cleric/Blackguard class level 2 or you can make it so Divine Might & Shield no longer have to be taken during Cleric/Blackguard/Paladin levels. The real issue you want addressed is having to take more than 3 class levels in Cleric/Blackguard to obtain these feats anyway and both adjustments address it.

Update: A thought just occurred to me. Is anyone thinking that I'm suggesting to also push the first general feat selections to level 3? The one (two if human or halfling) you get at Character level 1? If that's the case then no. Power at 3 doesn't aim to do that and I think it's hard coded anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:13 am 
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Why ? It's not an issue. DMs having to take a look at people breaking the rule is also hardly an issue, level ups don't happen every 5 minutes and illegal ones must be extremely uncommon.

Even outside impossible builds (another example would involve bard song feats, that can be taken on bard levels only, much the same as turn undead related ones) pushing most benefits at level 3 will also harm the skill points spread as you will have to take the 3 levels to get the feats you need to qualify for another PRC instead of just 1 or 2 levels that they would otherwise spread out.

Another problem would be that new build possibilities for Archmage and Hierophant would appear while these classes' requirements were designed with the 3b20 in mind (you need to be able to cast level 7 spells before level 18).

It's another set of complications that seems hardly necessary in the first place for a very minor gain and giving up one of the signature rules of the server.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Valefort wrote:
Another problem would be that new build possibilities for Archmage and Hierophant would appear while these classes' requirements were designed with the 3b20 in mind (you need to be able to cast level 7 spells before level 18).

For example with 3b30 would allow you to create a Cleric 14/Blackguard 3/Warpriest 3/Hierophant. You get a combined total of -3 to enemy saves from your Blackguard and Warpriest Auras, along with that caster level of 32.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:27 am 
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Valefort wrote:
Why ? It's not an issue. DMs having to take a look at people breaking the rule is also hardly an issue, level ups don't happen every 5 minutes and illegal ones must be extremely uncommon.
It doesn't matter if it happens every 5 minutes or once a day/week/month/year. It's a task that's better suited to be built into the mechanics rather than require manual human oversight. It's more efficient this way. Further, a rule can be easily broken. The same can't be said for a mechanic. And I've already mentioned the greater flexibility with building. Keeping it in balance is the only issue and, save skills and maybe scrolls (Still waiting for an answer on that.), it's not looking so bad save for the Archmage and Hierophant.
Valefort wrote:
(another example would involve bard song feats, that can be taken on bard levels only, much the same as turn undead related ones)
Bard songs aren't an issue. Turn Undead can be used to power Divine Feats that are directly powered by Charisma rather than Cleric/Paladin/Blackguard levels. Unless there's a BG change I'm unaware of, the power & acquisition of Bard Songs are directly tied to the Bard class level or PrCs levels like the Stormsinger. The Fascinate Song is the only exception as its DCs are solely dependent on the Perform Skill. If a character is essentially a "full bard" they're going to have more than 3 class levels anyway. Unless BG has new bard song feats that aren't directly tied to Bard levels, the change is irrelevant to Bards. Are there?
Valefort wrote:
Even outside impossible builds pushing most benefits at level 3 will also harm the skill points spread as you will have to take the 3 levels to get the feats you need to qualify for another PRC instead of just 1 or 2 levels that they would otherwise spread out.
That doesn't matter. Of all the PrCs I've looked over and/or experimented with, I've yet to encounter a PrC that can be taken before level 6. The reason for this is because the PrC either requires at least 8 skill points, +5 BAB or higher, access to level 3 spells, or a number of feats that can't be acquired before level 5. I vaguely recall a spell casting class on BG that only needed access to level 2 spells, but I can't confirm while the server is down. Unless BG has a PrC that breaks that mechanic trend, you need at least 5 levels in base classes before you can take your first PrC level. That's more than enough room set up your skills for your first PrC.
Sun Wukong wrote:
Valefort wrote:
Another problem would be that new build possibilities for Archmage and Hierophant would appear while these classes' requirements were designed with the 3b20 in mind (you need to be able to cast level 7 spells before level 18).

For example with 3b30 would allow you to create a Cleric 14/Blackguard 3/Warpriest 3/Hierophant. You get a combined total of -3 to enemy saves from your Blackguard and Warpriest Auras, along with that caster level of 32.
When I last played, both Archmage & Hierophant had strict cross classing rules with a select number of base classes (and PrCs for Archmage). It seems that restrictions was removed, so you can't really blame my suggested mechanical tweak for overpowered Archmage & Hierophants. You did that on your own.

That aside, this build doesn't look very impressive to me. You can easily get to caster level 32 (or 33) with a number of other class combinations with Hierophant. I haven't fought any of the epic level enemies on BG yet, but I find it hard to believe that -3 to saves will make a big difference. I know of several PC builds (That are possible under 3by20, too.) that would make that -3 look like a light slap.

The problem goes back to how easy it is now to multi-class with the Archmage and Hierophant PrCs. Since you removed the cross class restrictions, I'd suggest pumping the spell level requirement from 7 to 9 (and that goes with the current 3by20 system). That way any character that multi-classes away from spell casting will be unable to take a full 10 class levels in Archmage/Hierophant.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:18 am 
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I'm well aware of the difference between rules and mechanics but it is an extremely small plus. And I've already pointed there's not only more flexibility in building, there's more in some ways and less in others such as skill point spread.

Bard song feats are an issue, I was referring to curse song, lingering song; who need to be taken on bard levels.

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That doesn't matter. Of all the PrCs I've looked over and/or experimented with, I've yet to encounter a PrC that can be taken before level 6. The reason for this is because the PrC either requires at least 8 skill points, +5 BAB or higher, access to level 3 spells, or a number of feats that can't be acquired before level 5. I vaguely recall a spell casting class on BG that only needed access to level 2 spells, but I can't confirm while the server is down. Unless BG has a PrC that breaks that mechanic trend, you need at least 5 levels in base classes before you can take your first PrC level. That's more than enough room set up your skills for your first PrC.

That has nothing to do with my point, i'm talking about skill points spread, take a fighter/rogue for example, one will try to spend points on Tumble skill on Rogue levels and not on FIghter levels, so with most beefits, and potential key requirements feats are placed at level 3 of a PRC then you won't be able to spread out the Rogue levels and thus would have to pay more to max a given skill (assuming you don't have able learner). It's a net loss in terms of skill points flexibility.

However you were right as far as impossible builds go, all builds are possible with this rule as far as I could imagine.

This leaves the Hierophant and Archmage issue as well as skill points issue. All to solve a rather non-existent issue..
A fairly obvious point is also that pushing benefits at 3 will make some builds much less smooth as far as leveling goes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:38 am 
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Valefort wrote:
Bard song feats are an issue, I was referring to curse song, lingering song; who need to be taken on bard levels.
I was confused at first because the class description of curse song says it depends on class level. Then I did a google search and found otherwise. It seems it's dependent only on perform and caster level, but practiced spell caster is ineffective. Either way, it's essentially the same as Divine Might/Shield & Turn Undead (You just don't need to invest in another feat like Power Attack). You don't want to make players spend more than 3 class levels to acquire two feats. Just bump the bard song to class level 2 or remove the class only restrictions on Lingering & Curse Song.
Valefort wrote:
That has nothing to do with my point, i'm talking about skill points spread, take a fighter/rogue for example, one will try to spend points on Tumble skill on Rogue levels and not on FIghter levels, so with most beefits, and potential key requirements feats are placed at level 3 of a PRC then you won't be able to spread out the Rogue levels and thus would have to pay more to max a given skill (assuming you don't have able learner). It's a net loss in terms of skill points flexibility.
You're going to have to give an example build to illustrate this point.
Valefort wrote:
However you were right as far as impossible builds go, all builds are possible with this rule as far as I could imagine.
That's a yes and no. All builds are possible but they won't be as effective unless they obtain at least 3 levels in each class.
Valefort wrote:
This leaves the Hierophant and Archmage issue as well as skill points issue. All to solve a rather non-existent issue..
If it were non-existent, this topic wouldn't be here.
Valefort wrote:
A fairly obvious point is also that pushing benefits at 3 will make some builds much less smooth as far as leveling goes.
Any change will make things less smooth.

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 10:55 am 
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Sooo

Step 1) Move feats up so that taking anything less than 3 levels in a class is pretty worthless, apart from dipping 1 in rogue or bard for skills.

Step 2) Remove 3/20 Rule.

Step 3) Everyone takes. . .3 levels anyway?

But why? It doesn't accomplish much, other than delaying everyone's progression and making it harder to build characters. All it does is allow someone to dip 1 into a skill heavy class for skills.

Doesn't seem worth the effort at all. It requires dabbling in some hardcoded areas of the game. And, as was previously mentioned, mucking up current builds and screwing with the current balance.

Why not just ask for 3/30 instead?

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:12 pm 
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How about 4b30 then?

It is known that if 3b20 was dropped, many builds would get more power earlier in the progression, and then the Server becomes even more easier to play (against mobs) and faster to level (thus defeated the paradigm to keep progression at a generally slow pace).

If 3b30 was installed, then there are a number of pretty spectacular builds that could be now made for BGTSCC, which again, make for greater mechanical power, faster leveling and lowers the challenge rating (already dropping significantly over the last 2 years).

If 1b30 was adopted, well...we all know that taking HiPS from a 1 Level dip allows you to game the engine with breaking line-of-contact which will cancel out many spells. Since I don't think that could be fixed, obviously, 1b30 would not be a good choice.

But 4b30...hello! Now you have to rebalance early power gain against end Level power loss. LOL. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Why are you goofballs even posting in this clusterfudge of an idea 2 weeks after everyone walked away from it? Yeesh. :lol: Crap, now I posted in it!

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 Post subject: Re: The Will to Power at 3
Unread postPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 11:12 am 
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I was busy with finals, but, since no one posted anything, I saw no reason to follow up. I was disappointed as I was curious what Valefort was getting at with the skill point spread. That aside:
metaquad4 wrote:
But why? It doesn't accomplish much, other than delaying everyone's progression and making it harder to build characters. All it does is allow someone to dip 1 into a skill heavy class for skills.
It's the same as stated in the beginning. It would allow for more flexibility while mechanically enforcing the 3by20 rule. I (personally) think it's worth it because it's more efficient to build the rule into the system than require it to be manually monitored. The real waste is diverting staff time to police every build.

Either way, there really isn't more to say. The suggestion has been made, the benefits and flaws have already been pointed out, and it's now up to staff to decide whether to make use of any of it. Unless anyone has something new to add to the suggestion, the topic may as well be closed. As was pointed out, it was untouched for two weeks; a clear indication it has served its purpose.

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