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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:17 pm 
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samb123 wrote:
1. What does this add, in terms of improved gameplay and potential RP opportunities?


the sorc is a good class, but lacks a little when it comes to versatility and shows up as a pretty under utilized class in terms of numbers being played. it adds some versatility to the class.

concepts that are not quantified on the character sheet can now be put in and invested toward. the versatility would manifest naturally in unique and thoughtful RP.

samb123 wrote:
2. Who would use this?


i have no idea. I, for one, would. something like this mechanically that brings a depth to the character would. for me, it ties together mechanical and imaginative aspects that would generate an ownership of the concept without the feeling that i am pushing the boundary of not "playing my sheet".

samb123 wrote:
3. Is it necessary?


i do not think much added is necessary. but it does seem fun. and to some it is nothing while others would gain a main/new main. it does not fix a mechanical issue. that kind of thing is necessary. what i do think it does is allow for some of us to get a new idea flowing inside to write and create inside the sandbox that everyone enjoys together.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:00 pm 
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aaron22 wrote:
the sorc is a good class, but lacks a little when it comes to versatility and shows up as a pretty under utilized class in terms of numbers being played. it adds some versatility to the class.

The same could be said of most base classes, really. That is both their beauty and their limitation, frankly. Simple but not all that flashy.

aaron22 wrote:
i have no idea. I, for one, would. something like this mechanically that brings a depth to the character would. for me, it ties together mechanical and imaginative aspects that would generate an ownership of the concept without the feeling that i am pushing the boundary of not "playing my sheet".

Fair, I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:13 pm 
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The sorcerer base class is pretty lackluster compared to wizard or other spellcasters.
As mentioned, there is absolutely no reason to take Sorcerer beyond level 6.

Bloodlines would be a nice little boost, while opening up options and flavor for meaningful RP.

My 2 cents, unwarranted. :dance:

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:01 pm 
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samb123 wrote:
1. What does this add, in terms of improved gameplay and potential RP opportunities?

Wizard 30 gets a lot of feats that can be spent on things that boost their summons and shapeshifting and they can afford to get spell focuses in a multitude of different schools to make most out of their spellbook on this server.

Sorcerer 30 gets epic bonus feats. It has limited spell selection, so you need to know in advance what spells to pick and when to get most out of the class. While spontaneous spell casting is a great boon, a sorcerer still needs to multiclass in order to become better. I am not kidding when I say that 'Sorcerer 20/Arcane Scholar 10' is easily the superior choice over the single class sorcerer - and the more you multiclass - the better the 'sorcerer' gets.

In fact, the Automatic Still Spell using Fighter 4/Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 10/Frost Mage 10 build works best by not having more than 3 levels of sorcerer prior to level 20.

Therefore, if Sorcerer had options to enchance themselves with a choice of heritage feats that improve based on the number of sorcerer levels, I think there would be a bigger incentive to play a single class sorcerer. These heritage feats or abilities do not have to be over-powering, but those would be a good addition to the base class without giving more power to the highly multiclassed sorcerer builds.

samb123 wrote:
2. Who would use this?

I can image people going for heritage feats/abilities just for the 'cool' factor of it. This strange cool factior was why I eventually did a gnomish 'fey-lock' instead of the mechanically far superior Warlock/Dragon Slayer-lock.

samb123 wrote:
3. Is it necessary?

Nothing is necessary, not even playing on this server. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:10 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Sorcerer 30 gets epic bonus feats. It has limited spell selection, so you need to know in advance what spells to pick and when to get most out of the class. While spontaneous spell casting is a great boon, a sorcerer still needs to multiclass in order to become better. I am not kidding when I say that 'Sorcerer 20/Arcane Scholar 10' is easily the superior choice over the single class sorcerer - and the more you multiclass - the better the 'sorcerer' gets.

In fact, the Automatic Still Spell using Fighter 4/Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 10/Frost Mage 10 build works best by not having more than 3 levels of sorcerer prior to level 20.

I don't really see a problem with this. :think:

Sun Wukong wrote:
Therefore, if Sorcerer had options to enchance themselves with a choice of heritage feats that improve based on the number of sorcerer levels, I think there would be a bigger incentive to play a single class sorcerer. These heritage feats or abilities do not have to be over-powering, but those would be a good addition to the base class without giving more power to the highly multiclassed sorcerer builds.

Options are fine, so that's fair.

Sun Wukong wrote:
samb123 wrote:
2. Who would use this?

I can image people going for heritage feats/abilities just for the 'cool' factor of it. This strange cool factor was why I eventually did a gnomish 'fey-lock' instead of the mechanically far superior Warlock/Dragon Slayer-lock.

Rule of cool is appealing.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:25 am 
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As for suggestions about these heritage feats:

Sorcerer 1: Pick One Heritage Feat (Currently we have Draconic, Fey, and Fiendish)

Sorcerer 8: Improved Heritage Feat

Sorcerer 18: Greater Heritage Feat

Sorcerer 26: Epic Heritage Feat

Fey Heritage by default gives you +3 Will saves against Enchantments.
    Thus from Improved to Epic Heritage you could get up to +3 DC with your Enchantment spells and spell like abilities, and probably +3 to Cold Iron DR if you have Fey Skin.

Draconic Heritage by default improves spells with the Draconic Heritage by a '+1'.
    I do not think sorcerers have access to most of those spells, but they could gain the spell like ability to convert their highest remaining spell slot into a breath weapon that deals up to 1d6*9(Spell Level)*3(1 at Improved Heritage, 2 at Greater Heritage, 3 at Epic Heritage) points of damage in either a line or a cone.

Fiendish Heritage is just generally weird.
    But just like with the above Fey Heritage, you could just get up to +3 DC with Evocation spells with Epic Fiendish Heritage.

Therefore, a Fey or Fiendish Sorcerer could potentially get +4 to Enchantment/Evocation spell DCs with the combination of Epic Heritage and spending a feat on Fey/Fiendish Power. While the Draconic Heritage Sorcerer could have additional spell book flexibility due to their breath weapon.

Then you could have Elemental Heritage, either as a feat of its own or as something limited to Genasi that grants +1 DC with spells of the appropriate type. Fire for fire, Acid for earth, and so on.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:06 am 
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im thinking something along the lines of this.

fey feats: fey heritage is the first feat that opens these and fey feats must be taken on sorc levels.
fey skin: DR 3/Cold iron. increases +1 for every fey feat
fey resistance: +1 ST vs enchantments. increases 1 for every fey feat
fey knowledge: sylvan language granted. +2 to skill lore: nature. +1 for every fey feat
fey arcana: +1 to DC for enchantment. increases +1 for every two fey feats
fey visage: cha +1, str -1. increases/decreases for every three fey feats
fey magic: SLA 1/day, 1 feat: entangle. 2: woodland stride. 4: tree stride. 6: shapechange

could be more and would be similar, but different for each heritage. perhaps they would

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:41 am 
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What if a player doesn't want the heritage feats for their sorcerer? Is the idea to shoehorn all sorcerers into taking one? Or a bloodline?

I have a sorcerer, and none of the above would be compatible with his concept.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:01 pm 
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demonic

demonic heritage feat
demon hide: DR3/cold iron
fiend resistance: resistance 5 electricity and +1 poison save. +5/1 for every additional feat
demon knowledge: abyssal language granted. +2 skill lore:planes
fiend arcana: PB, GPB and gate spell granted bonuses as SF conj feat taken. + every 3 feats
demon claws: grow claws 1d4. 2:magic weapon for DR. 4: d6. 6: +d6 fire damage.
fiend magic: SLA 1/day. 1: cause fear. 2: rage 4:abyssal might 6: gr. teleport

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Snarfy wrote:
What if a player doesn't want the heritage feats for their sorcerer? Is the idea to shoehorn all sorcerers into taking one? Or a bloodline?

I have a sorcerer, and none of the above would be compatible with his concept.


yea.. my idea would allow you to take the heritage if you want it and not if you dont. get the heritage feat at level 1 and it opens the heritage feats to you. take as much or as little as you want. choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Sorcerer's do not need a power-up. Yes, there is no reason to go past level 6, but so what? There is little reason to take Fighter past ~12 as there are only so many strong feats you can make use of in one build. While Rogue has a lot of reasons to go to 16 or 19, the vast majority of builds including Rogue are either a 3 or 4 level 'dip'. How many Swashbucklers stop at 5? How many Paladins?

Is Sorc as strong as Wizard? In my opinion, no, but in the right circumstances and with the right spell selections a Sorcerer can defeat any wizard in a dual simply by outlasting them (as always, player skill being equal since in my experience that is the number one deciding factor in any PvP, followed by willingness and quickness in consumable usage.

I kind of agree with samb123 that I don't really see a compelling reason to improve the class. My concern being that while it is not as good as a Wizard due to DC casting being superior to blasting, it is still very strong as is. Giving it added power without taking away somewhere else seems a bad idea. And taking away 1 CHA or 2 DEX or whatever is not really impacting a Sorcerer build enough to cause any concerns. The added buffs are still power creep which should be avoided.

All this is just my opinion, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:39 pm 
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with all due respect chad. 8-)

i am not really doing this for a mechanical growth. it is for RP and bringing together the character sheet and the story that unfolds out of it. i would not really care if the concept was a nerf. i would just like to see it for the RP desires behind the concept.

mechanically the numbers would be out of my hands anyway. and they should be. i am not as good a judge of balance as those in the admin like yourself, vale and MrM. to compile a set of numbers that both relay the progress of the character and to keep the powerlevel at a low enough level to keep the power creep at bay.

i do not feel like a sorc needs anything either. this is something that me and maybe others may find fun playing. i have no problem with base classes being just that. the druids and monks are the exception to the 3.5 concept not the rule by which all should be judged.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Snarfy wrote:
What if a player doesn't want the heritage feats for their sorcerer?

I guess you could just pick something like: 'Unknown' and it gives no benefits.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Snarfy wrote:
What if a player doesn't want the heritage feats for their sorcerer?

I guess you could just pick something like: 'Unknown' and it gives no benefits.


or in my example. take LOH or spell prod or artist or empower spell or whatever in that background choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:06 pm 
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If it's just about RP and playing your sheet we have the Dragon Disciple PRC now and Fey and Fiendish Heritage Feats are available. Not saying the heritage feats are fantastic, but if it's just about the RP they are out there.

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