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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:16 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
Sorcerer's do not need a power-up. Yes, there is no reason to go past level 6, but so what? There is little reason to take Fighter past ~12 as there are only so many strong feats you can make use of in one build. While Rogue has a lot of reasons to go to 16 or 19, the vast majority of builds including Rogue are either a 3 or 4 level 'dip'. How many Swashbucklers stop at 5? How many Paladins?

Is Sorc as strong as Wizard? In my opinion, no, but in the right circumstances and with the right spell selections a Sorcerer can defeat any wizard in a dual simply by outlasting them (as always, player skill being equal since in my experience that is the number one deciding factor in any PvP, followed by willingness and quickness in consumable usage.

I kind of agree with samb123 that I don't really see a compelling reason to improve the class. My concern being that while it is not as good as a Wizard due to DC casting being superior to blasting, it is still very strong as is. Giving it added power without taking away somewhere else seems a bad idea. And taking away 1 CHA or 2 DEX or whatever is not really impacting a Sorcerer build enough to cause any concerns. The added buffs are still power creep which should be avoided.

All this is just my opinion, of course.


So long as the heritage feats are gained after level 6, they would have to be stronger then the alternatives (prestige classes) to be a power creep. Other wise it is just more options, and if there is a builder motivated or keen on the idea, there is no reason not to add more options.

That said not overly interested in anything that has been suggested so far, i would likely take my que from 5e as far as heritage feats would go.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:27 pm 
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i have toyed with the fiendish one and liked it enough to roll one. same with the dragon disciple. but there are a bunch of possibilities out there for other heritage and even a better representation to the sheet. the one i liked the most was the fiendish resistance one and you can see that most of the ideas are piggy backed off that concept.

i put fey and fiend out there KNOWING that they already exist. my ideas are more precise and tried to put forth a feeling of growth that i think most people like when they build using PrCs.

all told.. i am ok with nothing. and we can use the toys we have. there are plenty there anyway and i DO NOT need to roll any more characters. but that is another topic....

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:34 pm 
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ZestyDragon wrote:
That said not overly interested in anything that has been suggested so far, i would likely take my que from 5e as far as heritage feats would go.


let us know how your's would look?

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:38 pm 
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ZestyDragon wrote:
Other wise it is just more options, and if there is a builder motivated or keen on the idea, there is no reason not to add more options.


This is a common misconception. Here are a few reasons:

1. We have limited developers, a few have become far less active or inactive over the past several months meaning we have even less resources than we had last year currently.
2. New players/returning players confusion. Maecius has stated in the past we should avoid going "off book" going forward as a lot of content has been added which differs greatly from vanilla NWN2 and has no or only marginal basis in PnP. This causes information overload and can lead to frustration among the player base.
3. Something that is seen as ok now can become OP based on future additions. Case in point, it was determined to make some changes to Transmutation (I think that was the first one), then all the sudden similar work was done to adjust conjuration, and necromancy (!?!?!?!!?). So all the sudden Archmages with spell focus in two schools received a power increase. Let me say that again... WIZARDS RECEIVED A POWER INCREASE. It started with an idea that non-druid shifters could somehow use a bump and all the sudden casters in general became more powerful. That's like us giving Favored Souls extra bonus feats or free extend spell.
3a. So even if heritage feats are created that are 'RP only' then someone comes along a couple months later and says hey, it makes more sense for this heritage to get abilities x, y and z and all the sudden we have Sorcs running around that somehow get auto maximized spells 1-9. :evil:

So again, my concern is if it is just about RP the options are out there today. If it's about flavor, well where does that stop? We have a hell of a lot of flavors already, it's a lot to keep track of!

Final point - I'm not entering the conversation just to be Debbie Downer. There are legitimate issues that arise from saying "ok" to these requests which we have seen in practice. For example a request came through to make the less attractive armors better, so we did. As a part of this Chainmail was improved to 6/2 instead of 5/2, making it a solid option for those with a bit less dex than needed for breastplate. The side effect came later when the evasion change occurred, which shifted the power level of armors making Mithral Chainmail the new Mithral Plate. Is it a huge deal content wise? No, but I also think it was rather unfair to those players that spent millions of gold (back when it was more difficult to acquire) to acquire Mithral Full Plate which now has approximately 1/10th the value.

TL;DR - There should be a strong reason TO IMPLEMENT content, the argument should never be "there's no reason not to" (and not because it's a double negative!)

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:57 pm 
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fair points chad..

to not have any misconceptions, i have my own points to offer:

1)i am an idea machine. most bad ideas. a few good ones. i keep the good ones to myself though. this little area of my life is a fun outlet for being creative. learning. growing. sharing. talking. having fun. i have others, but this is one of them.

2)i have ZERO expectations. nuff said.

3)dont tell people that MCM is the new MFP. i just purchased a MCM w/++ for 25k on auction house.

TL/DR: i dont want to see a power creep unless it is my characters. then i want bunches of power creeps.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:27 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
ZestyDragon wrote:
Other wise it is just more options, and if there is a builder motivated or keen on the idea, there is no reason not to add more options.


This is a common misconception. Here are a few reasons:

1. We have limited developers, a few have become far less active or inactive over the past several months meaning we have even less resources than we had last year currently.
2. New players/returning players confusion. Maecius has stated in the past we should avoid going "off book" going forward as a lot of content has been added which differs greatly from vanilla NWN2 and has no or only marginal basis in PnP. This causes information overload and can lead to frustration among the player base.
3. Something that is seen as ok now can become OP based on future additions. Case in point, it was determined to make some changes to Transmutation (I think that was the first one), then all the sudden similar work was done to adjust conjuration, and necromancy (!?!?!?!!?). So all the sudden Archmages with spell focus in two schools received a power increase. Let me say that again... WIZARDS RECEIVED A POWER INCREASE. It started with an idea that non-druid shifters could somehow use a bump and all the sudden casters in general became more powerful. That's like us giving Favored Souls extra bonus feats or free extend spell.
3a. So even if heritage feats are created that are 'RP only' then someone comes along a couple months later and says hey, it makes more sense for this heritage to get abilities x, y and z and all the sudden we have Sorcs running around that somehow get auto maximized spells 1-9. :evil:

So again, my concern is if it is just about RP the options are out there today. If it's about flavor, well where does that stop? We have a hell of a lot of flavors already, it's a lot to keep track of!

Final point - I'm not entering the conversation just to be Debbie Downer. There are legitimate issues that arise from saying "ok" to these requests which we have seen in practice. For example a request came through to make the less attractive armors better, so we did. As a part of this Chainmail was improved to 6/2 instead of 5/2, making it a solid option for those with a bit less dex than needed for breastplate. The side effect came later when the evasion change occurred, which shifted the power level of armors making Mithral Chainmail the new Mithral Plate. Is it a huge deal content wise? No, but I also think it was rather unfair to those players that spent millions of gold (back when it was more difficult to acquire) to acquire Mithral Full Plate which now has approximately 1/10th the value.

TL;DR - There should be a strong reason TO IMPLEMENT content, the argument should never be "there's no reason not to" (and not because it's a double negative!)


1 - Your right and how do you keep builders motivated? By allowing them to build what inspires them. Limited builders only comes into play if you are assigning tasks not allowing people to take on projects they enjoy within the limit of the module. Fact is builders are volunteers and you are going to see a decrease if they don't enjoy their work.

2 - I have no real opinion on this that will not degrade this topic. So i will avoid commenting on it.

3 - Your right that is a risk so lets never add anything ever?. It is never not a risk you can't see the future so you can't predict future edits. When those future edits happen however they should take into account whats already in place, not the other way around.

TL;DR - I both agree and disagree. If there is someone willing to build it, people who like it and push for it, then there would need to be some reasons not to make it. So far the only one put forward is you are worried about future power creeps. Now while that might be an issue its not one that can be addressed within the confines of the suggestion, as we cannot predict the future.

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~ Thrania Ju'eline ~ Morning Paladin
~ Shade ~ Oblivion Knight
~ Sathia ~ Joy Bringer, The Halls of Inner Light, Apprentice Sword Coast Arcane


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:50 pm 
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ZestyDragon wrote:
1 - Your right and how do you keep builders motivated? By allowing them to build what inspires them. Limited builders only comes into play if you are assigning tasks not allowing people to take on projects they enjoy within the limit of the module. Fact is builders are volunteers and you are going to see a decrease if they don't enjoy their work.


No Dev has commented in this thread which makes me think this isn't something they would enjoy working on currently.

ZestyDragon wrote:
2 - I have no real opinion on this that will not degrade this topic. So i will avoid commenting on it.


Not sure how it degrades the topic, but ok.

ZestyDragon wrote:
3 - Your right that is a risk so lets never add anything ever?. It is never not a risk you can't see the future so you can't predict future edits. When those future edits happen however they should take into account whats already in place, not the other way around.


You misunderstand. New content should be added when there is a compelling reason to add it. "There's no reason not to" is not a compelling reason. I provided detail as to how things being added at different times, by different devs can lead to unforeseen issues, but if new content is well thought out and has a solid business case as to why it should be implemented (addresses a bug, makes for a better user experience for the majority of players, free's up resources, etc.) then the content which is added will be well received by most. Meanwhile if things are simply added because "why not"? then we end up with a lot of content that just slides in and causes a split where some players think it's great and others think it's an offense worth quitting the server over. You can't please everyone and I'm not saying the server should try to, but we certainly should be capable of managing content based on prioritization and adequate reasoning as to why something aught to be added.

ZestyDragon wrote:
TL;DR - I both agree and disagree. If there is someone willing to build it, people who like it and push for it, then there would need to be some reasons not to make it. So far the only one put forward is you are worried about future power creeps. Now while that might be an issue its not one that can be addressed within the confines of the suggestion, as we cannot predict the future.


Which is how we end up with venomous posts about how crafting will never be implemented. It's not that anyone on staff that has said "coming soon" lied... It's just that someone picks it up to work on it and then sets it aside or wants to implement in a way that someone doesn't like. It ends up causing strife, dissatisfaction and enmity from the player base because someone says "sure, why not" but when you say that to too many requests and end up overwhelmed then we often lose a developer with half finished content that doesn't go live.

Admins had a great thing with the '2 year project planning' document they released... Only thing I would likely have done differently (in hind sight) is avoided any timeline and instead just assigned prioritization and request (cuz as everyone knows...volunteers) the top priorities be worked on in advance of taking on additional items. Then make it a living document where as things go live and are deemed complete they're removed and as new requests get added they are assigned prioritization. I find it odd that you note Devs leaving because they aren't inspired/motivated, but fail to consider burn out from failure to properly manage the amount of new content to be developed.

And as I stated, this is all just my opinion. AoS or Valefort could likely provide a far better response for what is the top reason devs join and what the top reason is when they leave (either permanently or for extended periods).

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:03 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
Sorcerer's do not need a power-up. Yes, there is no reason to go past level 6, but so what? There is little reason to take Fighter past ~12 as there are only so many strong feats you can make use of in one build. While Rogue has a lot of reasons to go to 16 or 19, the vast majority of builds including Rogue are either a 3 or 4 level 'dip'. How many Swashbucklers stop at 5? How many Paladins?

Fighter 30 - gains epic feats at levels: 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30. There is a lot you can do with so many feats, which you can spent on anything you qualify for. Not to mention that you do get a quite large number of feats that are not available to anyone else.

A rogue is a class that needs HiPS, thus rogues had to multiclass into either Shadowdancer or Assassin. They were given the Hide in the Shadows feat, which actually allows a character to ignore the otherwise necessary multiclassing for HiPS.

As for swashbucklers they have been given Epic Precision, and Evasion at later levels, not to mention how they still gain that Luck of Heroes as a bonus feat and have the ability to lower enemy enemy strength and constitution with critical hits. Before; there was no reason to get more than 5 levels because against a critical hit immunity - the class gave you got nothing. This is not the case today and you have other options beyond the gimmicky Swashbuckler/Weapon Master or Duelist builds.

Finally, let us look at the Paladins of the server. Currently there are more paladin kits than anything else, and before that Paladins gained expanded spellbook that made them far stronger than what they had been before, and even before that their caster level was changed from half of their class level to their actually class level.

Before, all of the above classes were mostly used as 'dip' classes - and while they can still be used as 'dip' classes - there are more reasons today to get more levels of said classes than ever before.

But let us look at the 'dip' class of all 'dip' classes, sorcerer, a class that even those focusing on being sorcerer - want as few levels as possible. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:47 am 
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Not advocating for or against, because the points Chad raised are a very complex matter that needs delving into before doing so...but pure Sorcerer is immensely powerful as is, with its spell selection defining it (and spell choice is huge).

Pure Sorc can destroy pretty much everything on the server, far beyond Fighter. Pure SB or Rogue can’t compare, not even combined, despite the buffs.

It’s just that multiclassing options are so devastatingly powerful, they are impossible to pass up from a purely mechanical standpoint.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:20 am 
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Invoker wrote:
Not advocating for or against, because the points Chad raised are a very complex matter that needs delving into before doing so...but pure Sorcerer is immensely powerful as is, with its spell selection defining it (and spell choice is huge).

Pure Sorc can destroy pretty much everything on the server, far beyond Fighter. Pure SB or Rogue can’t compare, not even combined, despite the buffs.

It’s just that multiclassing options are so devastatingly powerful, they are impossible to pass up from a purely mechanical standpoint.


I'm genuinely curious -- how does a pure sorc destroy the white dragon? If the White wasn't encompassed in your "pretty much", how about the balor* then?

* without taking an inordinate amount of time that is...

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:48 am 
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The White Dragon cannot be soloed, by any class.

The Balor is either immune or extremely resistant to all arcane spells, making it the most complicated boss to solo for an arcane caster (non melee).

I’m curious, are you gonna say sorc and wizard are bad because of the design of a single boss?

I definitely stand by what I said: Sorcerer is a dominant class. Obliterates PvE, overpowering in PvP.

Find me anything else that is more than a speed bump for a Sorc in the entire server.

That is the definition of “pretty much”, yeah :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:00 am 
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Invoker wrote:
The White Dragon cannot be soloed, by any class.

The Balor is either immune or extremely resistant to all arcane spells, making it the most complicated boss to solo for an arcane caster (non melee).

I’m curious, are you gonna say sorc and wizard are bad because of the design of a single boss?


Nope, it's a pointless argument. :mrgreen:

Invoker wrote:
I definitely stand by what I said: Sorcerer is a dominant class. Obliterates PvE, overpowering in PvP.

Find me anything else that is more than a speed bump for a Sorc in the entire server.

That is the definition of “pretty much”, yeah :mrgreen:


I think a pure sorc will find it very challenging to make it through the entire Vault of the Dead.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:12 am 
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the_flame_of_anor wrote:
I think a pure sorc will find it very challenging to make it through the entire Vault of the Dead.


No, it won't.

If the sorcerer has in his spell selection either (one is more than enough) Wall of Fire (one of, if not THE most efficient cloud dmg spell. Becomes even more amazing with Archmage's MoE), Sunburst (one of the best control spells in the entire game) and/or Undeath to Death (rarely picked) and at least 3 levels of ASoC, it will be a breeze even if the player is affected by phocomelia, and in a comatose state.

Not to mention you can Jaunt-skip 75% of the place.

Killing the Dracolich as Sorcerer is also fairly easy.

Try again :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:21 am 
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We are talking about pure sorcs here, so no ASOC etc.

Also, an undead-oriented spell selection while possibly effective at the Vault could incur trade-offs for the pure sorc on other challenging parts of the server. And if so, the claim that the pure sorc obliterates "pretty much" everything needs closer scrutiny.

There is no "try again" here; I don't even play a pure sorc to begin with, so as I said, this is a purely an hypothetical exercise in curiosity for me, intrigued no doubt by your confident claims of the prowess of a pure sorc.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:40 am 
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the_flame_of_anor wrote:
We are talking about pure sorcs here, so no ASOC etc.

Also, an undead-oriented spell selection while possibly effective at the Vault could incur trade-offs for the pure sorc on other challenging parts of the server. And if so, the claim that the pure sorc obliterates "pretty much" everything needs closer scrutiny.

There is no "try again" here; I don't even play a pure sorc to begin with, so as I said, this is a purely an hypothetical exercise in curiosity for me, intrigued no doubt by your confident claims of the prowess of a pure sorc.


For the first part, you should read my post better. You don’t NEED ASoC. Last hint. Unless you are a comatose phocomelic, that is. You do need Metamagic feats.

Sunburst and Wall of Fire are not undead-oriented: they are best picks, as I explicitly said. But obviously, regular IGMS spamming folks would not realize THAT spell is “niche”.

Pure Sorc is proven, not hypothetical. You haven’t played it, but others did.

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