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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Maybe instead of just attributing the cause of miscomprehension solely on your audience, also work on the clarity of your sentence logic?

Invoker wrote:
If the sorcerer has in his spell selection either (one is more than enough) [A], [B] and/or [C] (rarely picked) and [D], it will be a breeze even if the player is affected by phocomelia, and in a comatose state.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:15 pm 
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You know what I think is lame? That there is all talk and no proof.

Show us a screenshot. Or, alternatively, dare another to the challenge of proving it, either way (don’t forget the eventual screenshot!).

Mechanics are interesting, but what is MORE INTERESTING, especially related to the OP, is how Bloodlines or ANY Sorcerer-specific additions increase the variety of Role-play under the request of Play your Character Sheet.

Perhaps simply giving Sorcerer a Bonus Feat at creation that would allow a choice to choose some “source” for the Raw Power a Sorc is defined to have within, even if just for Flavor (but some minor +/- should be considered).

Cause a Character Sheet is ALSO mechanics!

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:28 pm 
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what steve said-----period

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:32 pm 
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the_flame_of_anor wrote:
Maybe instead of just attributing the cause of miscomprehension solely on your audience, also work on the clarity of your sentence logic?

Invoker wrote:
If the sorcerer has in his spell selection either (one is more than enough) [A], and/or [C] (rarely picked) and [D], it will be a breeze even if the player is affected by phocomelia, and in a comatose state.


You are right. It's probably too much to ask you to keep in mind the original post you snarkily replied to:

Invoker wrote:
Not advocating for or against, because the points Chad raised are a very complex matter that needs delving into before doing so...but pure Sorcerer is immensely powerful as is, with its spell selection defining it (and spell choice is huge).

Pure Sorc can destroy pretty much everything on the server, far beyond Fighter. Pure SB or Rogue can’t compare, not even combined, despite the buffs.

[b]It’s just that multiclassing options are so devastatingly powerful, they are impossible to pass up from a purely mechanical standpoint.


Making two points contemporarily (how pure Sorc is already powerful, and what are the best examples of mechanics too tempting to pass up) in the same sentence is likely too ambitious.

Steve wrote:
You know what I think is lame? That there is all talk and no proof.

Show us a screenshot. Or, alternatively, dare another to the challenge of proving it, either way (don’t forget the eventual screenshot!).

Mechanics are interesting, but what is MORE INTERESTING, especially related to the OP, is how Bloodlines or ANY Sorcerer-specific additions increase the variety of Role-play under the request of Play your Character Sheet.

Perhaps simply giving Sorcerer a Bonus Feat at creation that would allow a choice to choose some “source” for the Raw Power a Sorc is defined to have within, even if just for Flavor (but some minor +/- should be considered).

Cause a Character Sheet is ALSO mechanics!


If you are a good enough player, you don't need screenshots for something so simple.

A pure Sorc can easily afford CE/ICE (which means some 43-45 AC with Shades, Shadow Shield and IMA up. With Mirror Images and Deez for perma-concealment, it's immortal, unless you are the worst player that ever installed the game), and at least three metamagic feats, of which two are going to be Extend and Empower spell. It can get CHA 32 (29 +3) and Vampiric Feast.

People who played arcanists for a decade and know how this game works, also know what the above means. And that every decent high CHA caster Sorc will pick Sunburst. And that Wall of Fire is enormously powerful.

Ohboy's character, a very relevant sorceress known as Sabel Faeria, the Red Sorceress, ex leader of the Dead Crow, was a pure sorceress for a long time before RCRing. Never had an issue with anything. And not the only one, I might add, but the one everyone knows.

The feats Aaron proposed will not change anything, because ASoC, Blood Magus, Shadow Adept, Archmage and Pale Master will STILL be overpowering in comparison. You could make them powerful, and still they wouldn't be a balance concern.

But a pure Sorc (buffed: over 250 HP, AC 44, DR 30, Immune to Necromancy, Mirror Images and Haste up, rounds up the entire floor at the boss, and kills everything with 5-6 spells. Alternatively, he can Jaunt to bosses and kill them with 2-3 spells. Subsequently, he can kill the Draco with ease with at least two strategies) can clean his (hiney) with the Vault of the Dead, and if you need a SS to prove it, then you're pretty inexperienced.

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what steve said-----period


You're a tad new to the game. Especially to make such claims.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:46 pm 
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If you are a good enough player, you don't need screenshots for something so simple.


Invoker, you undoubtedly have experience with this game and others, but you’re still all words.

Which is why I giggle when I see you passively insult other players about their skills and experience (or lack there of). Cause instead of these layered slights you shoot off with regularity, you could just actually show some factual information without editorializing it, and more than prove your point, forgoing the whole L2P noob attitude.

That said, L2P noob is an actual thing, just as player skill is a thing (which is sadly often meta-used over Play your Sheet Role-play). But it is one thing to say L2P noob with only words or anecdotes versus showing in as factual a manner as possible, how it IS possible.

Like, for example, M3nt’s numerous screenshots proving the mechanics of certain builds (a la naked STR bard).

I’d be the first one to line up and say “you are righter than rain”...if you actually proved it.

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Last edited by Steve on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Invoker wrote:
You're a tad new to the game. Especially to make such claims.


by what do you mean? to this thread? check out the OP's author. to the server? >2 years may not be 10, but i would not call that new to the game. do i need to reach a certain tenure to meet your requirement to post on threads you post on?

i agree with much of what steve said escpecially in the final portion..

Steve wrote:
Mechanics are interesting, but what is MORE INTERESTING, especially related to the OP, is how Bloodlines or ANY Sorcerer-specific additions increase the variety of Role-play under the request of Play your Character Sheet.

Perhaps simply giving Sorcerer a Bonus Feat at creation that would allow a choice to choose some “source” for the Raw Power a Sorc is defined to have within, even if just for Flavor (but some minor +/- should be considered).

Cause a Character Sheet is ALSO mechanics!


i do not care if it gets placed in the server. i would like it. but with that said, having the CS show a tie to a bloodline conforms to the play your sheet rule. having that be a mechanic that can actually be used, rolled, played out in game, is cool.

is cool a solid and must notice reason? not really but i cannot think of a better explanation for having the mechanics support the feat.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Quote:
Which is why I giggle when I see you passively insult other players about their skills and experience (or lack there of). Cause instead of these layered slights you shoot of with regularity, you could just actually show some factual information without editorializing it, and more than prove your point, forgoing the whole L2P noob attitude.


How is being inexperienced with a class insulting? There are tons of classes I never played. And where are the "layered slights" I "shoot off (I guess?) with regularity", when I haven't been regularly posting for years?

Maybe you should bring your usual demagogy elsewhere.

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Like, for example, M3nt’s numerous screenshots proving the mechanics of certain builds (a la naked STR bard).


I don't take SSs when I play, because I simply don't think about it. Curiously enough, some of the best plays I have done, I have done in front of M3nt, Karond, Molag and my other friends. Why don't you ask them, instead of talking about things you don't know :P ?!

Hilarious you took exactly M3nt as an example...hahaha!

But you know what is, without doubt and openly offensive? This:

Quote:
Invoker, you undoubtedly have experience with this game and others, but you’re still all words.


If I were "all words", I would probably be sad now :P

Thanks for the giggles, folks.

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is cool a solid and must notice reason? not really but i cannot think of a better explanation for having the mechanics support the feat.


Yes. It's a cool, solid reason, and well-grounded enough to make the suggestion. But it has nothing to do with what Flame of Anor implied, and even less with the reason why Steve jumped into the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Steve wrote:
I’d be the first one to line up and say “you are tighter than rain”...if you actually proved it.


Why not find Invoker in game and watch him obliterate content(with pretty much any build he plays) first hand? Capturing and posting a pile of screenshots just to prove what you already know, just to appease doubters on the forums, is a monumental waste of time. For real, go find him IG, and see for yourself ;)

As for sorcerers, I have a level 30 that is pretty much considered an RP build, for all intents and purposes(Sorc/FM/Thaum). He isn't weak, by any stretch of the imagination, and I sincerely doubt he'd be any weaker if I had gone sorcerer 30. Sorcerers are doing just fine, they don't necessarily need any love, but I'd be alright with some more "flavor" options, as long as they didn't exacerbate the aforementioned power creep issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:15 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
No Dev has commented in this thread which makes me think this isn't something they would enjoy working on currently.


I had been monitoring this thread but my view was blocked by some ginormous egos. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:16 pm 
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How is being inexperienced with a class insulting?


When you write "If you are a good enough player..." and "if you need a SS to prove it, then you're pretty inexperienced." English isn't your first language, right? Well let me tell you that this type of writing comes across as insulting. Adjectives, man, adjectives.

So there are your slights. I'd be happy to go through many of your posts and pick out similar means of communicating, if you'd say to me "I wish to see this for myself, and make a change of it." So?

Oh...and you HAVE been posting regularly for years...shall I link you to your other Forum accounts, publicly?

Steve = demagogue. Thank you man! I am more than pleased to be seen as a "leader of the people." :twisted:

Look, just say "I won't produce a screenshot" and that's fine. No screenshot, just words then. You can be happy with them. I'm not. Deal? And M3nt's words are just words too...yet often enough, he'll make an effort to share a screenshot, because—as I assume—he really wants people to see facts, not braggadocio.

In this thread, you're still all words, Invoker. If you want to level up a Sorcerer and take me IG and show me what you're saying in just words, I'll meet you there! Snarfy can bring the cheez pops and mountain dew.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Steve wrote:
When you write "If you are a good enough player..." and "if you need a SS to prove it, then you're pretty inexperienced." English isn't your first language, right? Well let me tell you that this type of writing comes across as insulting. Adjectives, man, adjectives.


Oh, my English is indeed just one of my five languages, and not my native one. But I still write better than you. I can point you towards your (numerous, over the years...) grammar errors, if you like, but I have a feeling you'd consider those "insulting" as well. Which is typical "Steve" :).

Quote:
So there are your slights. I'd be happy to go through many of your posts and pick out similar means of communicating, if you'd say to me "I wish to see this for myself, and make a change of it." So?


If you had wanted to do such a thing, you could have PMed me. What you wish to do instead, is attract the playerbase's attention with false accusations, and take years' old posts trying to give the impression they are post 2016.

I could also find all the times you waited on someone, and jumped them in a thread, exactly like you clumsily tried to do to me today.

This isn't the US elections, in case you didn't notice.

Quote:
Oh...and you HAVE been posting regularly for years...shall I link you to your other Forum accounts, publicly?


I like the "publicly", because it states in no uncertain term what you are here for. How amusing.

It's another lie, btw. I have taken a break of two years from the game, and posted almost nothing. I have had two forum accounts with which I posted in a DECADE, and when I changed to this from my former one, I made the change public.

But of course, you know this very well. But...you know...the demagogy :P

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Steve = demagogue. Thank you man! I am more than pleased to be seen as a "leader of the people." :twisted:


"To be seen". Yes. That's exact. Your N1 motivator.

Quote:
Look, just say "I won't produce a screenshot" and that's fine. No screenshot, just words then. You can be happy with them. I'm not. Deal? And M3nt's words are just words too...yet often enough, he'll make an effort to share a screenshot, because—as I assume—he really wants people to see facts, not braggadocio.


Of course. You suddenly realized there are facts behind the words...oh nooo! The "theory" is disproved :). Quick, before another bunch of eminent players join in to tell you what most already know. :lol:

Please...do yourself a favor, and take it to PMs.

Quote:
In this thread, you're still all words, Invoker. If you want to level up a Sorcerer and take me IG and show me what you're saying in just words, I'll meet you there! Snarfy can bring the cheez pops and mountain dew.


I will ask for a QC character, if there is vast interest behind this. Then, what is already evident to everyone experienced enough after I have given the numbers above (AC, HP, wards, offensive spells, key feats...what more can a long-timer need?!?) will be clear to you too.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Alright... I never like to post to this. In fact this is the first time I do but I think it is needed as it is a returning issue.

Steve... Could you please stop inventing all these weird things like alt accounts he has been using? He only has posted with two accounts considering mechanical issues. Aelcar and Invoker. Then, could you also stop giving the words he writes an emotional touch? He gives numbers and facts so that people can make their own calculations. Those who can... know he is right. I myself don’t always bother to calculate but I am a witness that what he claims is true, among others. Stick to the thread...

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:10 pm 
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How about the personal attacks be kept to PM and you avoid commenting on a suggestion topic without an actual suggestion.

The power argument comes down to is level 30 sorcerer as powerful as a sorcerer with prestige classes. If the answer is no which it is then there can be room for more flavor without risk of a power creep, so long as said flavor does not increase power over the multiple prestige classes offered.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:18 pm 
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ZestyDragon wrote:
The power argument comes down to is level 30 sorcerer as powerful as a sorcerer with prestige classes. If the answer is no which it is then there can be room for more flavor without risk of a power creep, so long as said flavor does not increase power over the multiple prestige classes offered.


This is all correct, but not so simple.

The thread development went more or less like this:

- Aaron (OP) asked for flavor feats, to give people RP (NOT mechanical) incentive towards playing a "purer" (if not pure) Sorc.
- Several comments were made, with Chad raising a very important point: resources, motivation and prospective mechanical interaction
- Sun raised an interesting analogy with Fighter, Swash and Rogue
- I acknowledged Chad's point, meanwhile stating how Sorcerer is on a similar level of customization (through spells) with Sun's classes, but on a whole different power level.
- Flame of Anor is not convinced pure Sorcerer would hold up against high-end content, and made the Vault of the Dead example.
- I know full well how Sorc performs in there, and gave a few reference numbers and spells to support my experience
- Steve came in the thread, with mainly ad hominem and other amenities.

So, you see: the point isn't how powerful pure Sorc is/would be, nor to empower it.

It's a matter of RP, flavor and choices, and if it's warranted to invest the devs' energy into this particular project, for this particular class.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodlines
Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:35 pm 
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and yes to get to the OP.

i give examples of ideas to grant flavor to the sorc class. ideas that i think could be enjoyed more in the community (as a player and as a player meeting these players) than what we have now.

i do agree with the feeling that while RP is the basis for it, mechanical aspects that create a "unique" experience without becoming overpowered would be the best solution to what i propose.

i honestly do not care if a sorc can solo the balor or dracolich. in any form.. i dont care that the bard can do this in the buff. i also do not want this to be a discussion that because a druid 30 is king druid that all base classes should be best when taken all the way.. i firmly stand against that concept. the PrCs are there for flavor.. add your flavor.

i am aware of a few sorc builds and one thing i do notice and was spoken on before. almost all sorc builds have as few sorc levels as it can. and this is not from sorc feats.. it comes from spell level. the sorc adds so little to the build. perhaps there is a way the sorc can be a part of the build more..

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