Barbarian/Breach Gnome

[WatWatsen]

So I've got the idea of rolling a barbarian/breach gnome stuck in my head, and now I have to do it. :V Looking for advice on what kind of split to go for, though.

I've made one barb I was happy with before (20 barb/6 fighter/4 anointed knight), my first thoughts here were 20 barb/5 breach gnome/5 something. Race would be rock gnome. I wanted to go sword/board to capitalize on high AC, since that was a deficiency of my 2h barb. My first thought was another dip of anointed knight for tumble dumps to hit 30 ranks by level 27, but the feat prereqs for that + breach gnome ended up being pretty daunting to cram into low levels, and left me starved for all the other feats I wanted (luck of heroes, extended rages, ice troll berserker, improved knockdown, steadfast determination). Was also thinking of going for combat expertise/ICE for even better AC, but not sure how I can cram all this in there. Considered dropping AK for fighter levels to get more feats, but that would leave me with an XP penalty unless I kept barb/fighter equal, and that would prevent me from ever hitting barb 20, which was a goal.

Other suggestions I've heard would be 20 barb/5 breach gnome/either 5 frenzied berserker or divine champion, both of which could be nice. Only downsides are I can't use power attack and combat expertise simultaneously, and if I went DC, my charisma would suck so divine wrath wouldn't be that useful.

Other considerations: What kinda weapon to use? Would like to stay sword/board, so small (although monkey grip is an option I hadn't considered, may be possible but would hurt AB and tax feats further). First thoughts were short sword or handaxe, kukri might be "better" and is an option but seems less thematic to me. What kinda armor to use? I had been assuming heavy, and I'll need a natural 13 dex for feat prereqs, not sure I'll have the stat points to make using some mithral light armor plausible for evasion. Also: Rages, I was assuming whirlwind for more AC, since I used that on my 2h barb, but I've heard standard rage is superior for sword/board barbs.

Anyway, appreciate any input Anyone rolled something similar?
Thanks.

[Hendrak]

Dragon Warrior may also be a path to consider.

Whirlwind Fremzy has limited Armor bonus if you wield a shield with it. Therfore Standard Rage may be better with Shield.

You could also consider going PTWF , tough i am pretty sure thats inferior.

A Cleric dip could also work with the right domains or even Bard 5.

Or a warlock 5 dip? Exotic but may work.

[Rudolph]

How about Bear Warrior? Your question reminded me of a Breach Bear build I made ages ago. I updated it a bit and suggested some equipment for it. The results certainly make for great defense and rp. Having said that, the equipment is very hard to get (I don't have it myself) and maybe Fighter instead of AK would be better without it.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?288742

[Hendrak]

Thats a very nice bear warrior build.

Do you know for how long and how often he can rage a day?

I would pick Steadfest Determination on 18.

Theres that gnomish light hammer from cold iron with extra dmg against chaotic enemies. Could be a nice choice against some enemies.

[Rudolph]

Do you know for how long and how often he can rage a day?

Should be 5x 36 rounds, which is plenty.

I would pick Steadfest Determination on 18.

It needs Toughness, which only comes at 27, though. The bonus feat on 18, by the way, only allows for Combat Expertise as a useful choice. I'd rather have WF (Unarmed), but that isn't available.

Theres that gnomish light hammer from cold iron with extra dmg against chaotic enemies. Could be a nice choice against some enemies.

Damage against alignment doesn't transfer, I think. Only purely physical and elemental damage does.

If you don't have the Monk ring, definitely consider rebuilding it with 4 levels of Fighter rather than AK (for Weapon Spec. and Weapon Mastery Unarmed at the cost of a little AC). Its a bit fiddly to optimize but will certainly be better that way. The IPA armor you can compensate for with an Enlarge Person wand or item (e.g. the Belt of Growth): using that instead of IPA gives you the same damage at +2 AB and -1 AC.

[Rudolph]

PS: an important question for developers (e.g. Valefort) re. that Gnome Bear is whether the size malus of the gnome for Knockdown transfers to Bear Shape. That would be a shame, obviously...

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

How about Bear Warrior? Your question reminded me of a Breach Bear build I made ages ago. I updated it a bit and suggested some equipment for it. The results certainly make for great defense and rp. Having said that, the equipment is very hard to get (I don't have it myself) and maybe Fighter instead of AK would be better without it.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?288742

Sorry to disappoint, but Breach gnome AC doesn't work in Bear form (since it is a dodge AC).

[Rudolph]

Sorry to disappoint, but Breach gnome AC doesn't work in Bear form (since it is a dodge AC)

Oh no. Really? I thought I tested this four years ago and it did work for the bear when it kicked in after the transformation - but then this was before many many changes...

Too bad.

[WatWatsen]

I hadn't considered bear warrior before, but now that I look at it, it might be pretty fun... Also helps a lot that I'd get four of the feats I need (extend rage 1/2, knockdown/IKD). What if I dropped breach gnome since it wouldn't stack with bear form, and went all in on a gnome barbearian? Considering 8 fighter/8 barb/10 bear warrior/4 anointed knight. Would be nice to mix in frenzied berserker and divine champion somehow but then if I dropped AK and fighter for those I'd be losing tower shield proficiency and tumble... Also originally tried having the AK levels spread out for tumble dumps, but would have to burn an epic feat on steadfast determination at 27, so tried cramming those in early and buying able learner. Thinking about going for all the epic DR and fast healing feats, does the fast healing stack with bear fast healing? Also, does armor skin stack with bear natural AC? It says it modifies the base AC (so 10->11) but would it affect the bear form's AC, or is it just implemented as a natural armor bonus that wouldn't stack? On that note, how bout luck of heroes? It says "luck bonus" but I think I read that it was just implemented as a dodge bonus?

Appreciate the input, everyone!

[chad878262]

I think you'd be better off going F12/B8/BW10. You'll want to invest in Extra Rage since you'll only have 3/day, even with extend rage you'll need more uses since when not in Bear form your just a bit of a weaker Fighter build. Note that you can still use weapon focus/specialization/melee mastery with unarmed to apply in Bear Form, so you are better off not using a weapon and instead getting the best elemental damage gloves you can find. That alongside Epic Specialization: Unarmed, Unarmed Mastery, and Improved Crit: Unarmed should give you pretty decent damage in Bear form... However, when not in Bear form any fist monk will make you look like a chump.

[Rudolph]

In short, I would recommend going 10 Barb 10 BW 10 Anointed Knight for a number of reasons.

All regen feats stack. Armor Skin stacks with everything, too, and I am sure LoH transfers to the Bearshape as well (as far as I know, only Dodge AC from items doesn't transfer - I'm not even sure about Breach Gnome AC yet as long as no one says they tested it).

[WatWatsen]

I'd have to keep fighter and barbarian equal to avoid an XP penalty, since neither would be favored class.

I was thinking I'd be using the amulet with extra rage and nat AC on it, since I can buy one (I'll never have any of the epic rare trade-only gear in the build above like a monk ring etc, just what can be had from the epic shops with gold).

Why do you recommend AK 10? Not disagreeing, just curious. Looks like it'd get me two bonus feats, 3 DR (does that stack with barb DR/epic DR feats/bear form? Might be nice if it does) and bit of elemental damage, while fighter 8 would get me a lot more feats (I wouldn't be able to get all 3 epic DRs and epic fast healings without some fighter bonus feats in the epics). Though, going from barb 8 to barb 10 would get me 2 DR and a bonus feat. But then I'd be losing either the fighter bonus feats, or the toughness/blindfight/tower shield prof/tumble skill/elemental damage from AK.

Also considered going all-in on the unarmed feats and not using a weapon unshifted, but that'd require buying improved unarmed strike, and I don't think I'd have the feats for the whole line, anyway.

[Rudolph]

Why do you recommend AK 10? Not disagreeing, just curious. Looks like it'd get me two bonus feats, 3 DR (does that stack with barb DR/epic DR feats/bear form? Might be nice if it does) and bit of elemental damage, while fighter 8 would get me a lot more feats (I wouldn't be able to get all 3 epic DRs and epic fast healings without some fighter bonus feats in the epics).

AK 10 gets you Toughness, Blindfight, 1d4 dmg (these three are each worth a feat), Alertness, 1 more DR (the 3 don't stack with the 2 Barb ones), 2 epic bonus feats, and a big improvement in saves and skillpoints. The 10th Barb level gets you another bonus feat. I think this is slightly better in many scenarios, given that a Monk ring covers most Fighter only feats, but then it is a very close call and Fighter may well be better for some builds.

Fast Healing III on top of Epic DR 9 would need 23 CON and use up pretty much all your epic feats - at quite a cost to Strength, which is low anyway on a gnome. This hits both your AB and Knockdown modifier quite hard. I'd choose one or the other. Though maybe you could still go that route and get away with being the supreme punching bag.

It looks like the Breach bear may be viable after all. I suspected as much... Still, it would be good if one of the staff members confirmed that Seal the Breach still works in bearshape.

[WatWatsen]

Seal the breach should work in bear form. The effects are applied intermittently depending on your position, and post shaping, so no reason it shouldn't.

As resident member of the Gnomeocracy, do you have any tips for breach gnome builds? Would be a fun class and was my original idea, just that when I started playing around in the builder, felt super feat-starved and getting extend rage 1/2 and knockdown/IKD from bear warrior would help a lot, plus turning into a bear would be hilarious.

Rudolph, I agree AK is a great class! I was already contemplating 8 barb/8 fighter/10 bear warrior/4 AK, to which I thought you were suggesting 10 barb/10 bear warrior/10 AK instead, and was wondering if the benefits of the extra AK and barb levels would outweigh the lost feats from the fighter levels, that's all. And sadly I wouldn't have a monk ring or any epic trade-only gear like that. You do have a good point about all the fast heal feats eating up all the epic feats and leaving strength too low, in which case maybe using the two AK bonus feats for great strengths might pay off better?

[Rudolph]

Yeah, without the Monk ring 8 fighter levels might have the edge over full AK. Re. STR you just need to play around with the build and see how much loss you can afford for other goodies. Fighter feats will compensate for less STR, and Knockdown will not be great in any case since the Gnome size is used to determine the modifier, I think. I'd prefer DR over regen because you save far more hp through it than you regenerate in the same time - unless you're fighting pure casters.

I'd go for the Breach bear because it's unique to gnomes