A question for experienced summoners

[Rudolph]

I was playing around with the new shapeshift forms, which are great fun for people like me who draw enjoyment from finding unusual (power)builds: though I wish there were Finesse weapons available also for the Shapeshift forms (even at the cost of a few nerfs) so that uniquely flavored Swashbuckler, Duelist and Sneak-centred shapeshifters would make sense.

The idea behind the following build was to summon the most powerful melee summons possible, buff them and the caster up to the eyeballs with undispellable magic, and then shapeshift into an Arboreal Elf or Erinye and support the summons in battle with some powerful archery.

I have little experience with summons, though - don't even know their durations on BGTSCC - and prioritized number of attacks and AB here (45 was my minimum goal). This means I didn't take any summoner feats, let alone the Thaumaturge class. Do you think this is a viable strategy on the server or are those summons just too short-lived? If the latter, do you see ways of making it viable with minor changes? Improved Crit. Longbow might be replaceable, for instance. If not, I might give up one attack and go for another class mix...

http://nwn2db.com/build/?288977

[chad878262]

Can't look at your build from work, but I can give you some details as I have a W20/T5/MA5 which is a decent summoner (though he doesn't use Shapeshift as often).

though I wish there were Finesse weapons available also for the Shapeshift forms (even at the cost of a few nerfs) so that uniquely flavored Swashbuckler, Duelist and Sneak-centred shapeshifters would make sense.

They already hit fairly consistently when buffed so giving weapon finesse would likely add a significant bump to the AB. I suppose it would be relatively simple to lower the BAB/AB to compensate, but that seems like it would be a net nil change, so what's the point?

The idea behind the following build was to summon the most powerful melee summons possible, buff them and the caster up to the eyeballs with undispellable magic, and then shapeshift into an Arboreal Elf or Erinye and support the summons in battle with some powerful archery.

Perfectly viable, though you should note archery automatically uses DEX for AB so no need for Weapon finesse.

I have little experience with summons, though - don't even know their durations on BGTSCC - and prioritized number of attacks and AB here (45 was my minimum goal).

Duration for most summons is minute/level. However, there are some that are hour/level and some of the really powerful ones are ~round/level (so 3 minutes in most cases). The specifics are available in the custom spell changes here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49041 (not a complete list, but a good starting point). You can also research specific spells on the wiki here: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Category:Spells

As to AB, getting to 45 on summoned creatures is a fairly big ask... Some of them might hit that, but will likely take a hit in the AC, saves, and/or damage department. However, consider if you summon a Fire Giant and then apply GMW, Gr. Heroism and Bull's STR. That could be as much as +11 to the Attack Bonus, so even if the Fire Giant summoned is at ~30 he's now at 41, which is fine.

In general, any time you try to do multiple things in D&D your overall power level will suffer. Thaumaturge doesn't add power to your summons, but Spell Focus: Conjuration does... Additionally Spell Focus: Transmutation adds some strength to Polymorphing and Shapechange. So if these are your primary tactics taking one or both lines of Spell Focus might provide a power boost over Improved Critical or other feats. Extend Spell is a must IMO since you are, at the end of the day building a buff bot (one or two summon spells, shapechanges and basically the rest is buffing). You can of course (and should) memorize a few 'boss killer' and 'Oh @#%#$' type spells for when needed, but otherwise your kind of a specific type of gish. Since Shapechange overrides your stats you will likely still focus mostly on INT for more spell slots and I'm pretty sure that Shapechange overrides your APR for that of the shapechange form (otherwise pretty much all gish builds would just aim for CL30 and BAB 21+).

Hope this helps, best of luck.

[Rudolph]

Thanks, Chad,

A post I learnt much from, though it doesn't quite fit the build I posted. My side remark on the desirability of Weapon Finesse shapes had nothing to do with it, really, as it is a Druid archer with Zen Archery (D8/DS10/Hosp6/MoR6). It has 45 AB with Manyshot (which I meant with my minimum) and uses utterly unenhanced summons. It is basically the strongest Shapeshift Archer (with 30 CL and no sneaking) I could make and does not give anything but the minimum to summoning. It does have Extend spell and lots of buffing spells, but that's pretty much it.

On reflection, I am thinking, I should probably specialize in summoning and compromise on the archery a little...

[Deathgrowl]

Isn't unarmed basically finesseable weapons? A lot of the forms are unarmed. Doesn't help with the duelist part of your idea, but the swashbuckler counts.

[Rudolph]

Haha, everyone is interested in the side question. I think the seemingly 'unarmed' forms use creature weapons that are not finessable.

[Deathgrowl]

I've played several wizards, but never taken any summon feats. The Summon Creature IX and Greater Planar Binding spells both last 60 seconds per caster level, and the latter is a level 8 spell and can thus be extended (though you may prefer the summons of Summon Creature IX, as they are in my experience simply better).

They're more than powerful enough if you give them a few buffs to handle all the subepic content and even some of the lowepic content on the server. And that is even without any summon specialisation at all.

And you'll never need to go to higher epic places in order to level. Just not worth it in any way. Far more dangerous, much slower and the XP gain from the more powerful kills isn't enough to make up for the time lost. And if you still want to go to high epic places all alone, Dominate Monster is a great tool, provided you don't prohibit yourself from the Enchantment school.

[Sapper Woody]

If you want to be a summoner, imo, Thaumaturgist is a must. It gives you augment summoning for free. It gives your summons double duration, which stacks with extend spell. It gives you contingent summoning, to have two summons out, doubling your power. And then it gives you planar cohort, which isn't super amazing, but a semi-permanent summon is nice.

Throw in Epic Conjuration focus (which you might as well, as to get Thaumaturgist you have to have greater, and you want to be a summoner anyway) and all your summons have +4HD.

Use two level 8 Greater Planar Binding spells to summon your creatures (I use Ghaeles most, unless I need fire for trolls). Buff them like crazy. Then kill most things while your wizard is sitting safely somewhere else. In case you get into big trouble, you take Epic Gate. Your summon will then last 6 minutes (with 30CL) and you can wreck most bosses.

It's actually a very boring way to play, as your wizard sits safe doing nothing while your summons wreck things. But if you want to play a summoner, and actually be viable, you pretty much are pigeon-holed into going Thaumaturge. Otherwise you're just wasting spells/feats. If you get greater conjuration focus for summons, then you've got the pre-reqs for Thaumaturgist. No reason NOT to become one at that point.

[Rudolph]

Thanks, Sapper Woody, for the good advice. Re. Thaumaturge, I came to the same conclusion after some pondering and made a new build (see below), which should summon pretty well and yet do quite a bit more than just sit around (it's also a rare case of Fighter 5 being the best option, I think). A few questions to you and others in view of what you wrote:

1) My build is a Druid, not a Wizard for several reasons (mostly AB). Do you think that is a big problem re. the available summons and buffing spells?

2) You suggest that Contingent Summoning allows for more than one summon out. Is that true? I thought I had to take 5 lvls of Thaumaturge and get Planar Cohort in order to have two summons out. If Contingent is enough, is there any point beyond the permanency to take the 5th lvl? Does Planar Cohort allow for a third summon?

3) How good do you think is Oaken Resilience? I made some sacrifices to get it as well as Oak Friend to put those otherwise useless Wild Shapes to good use. Is it worth a little AB and AC?

4) Is 43 (in most cases 40) AB incl. the Manyshot penalty enough for a support archer, do you think?

THE BUILD:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?289689

[chad878262]

Fighter 5 is not the best option. One more level of druid still ends at 5 apr while preserving caster level.

[Sapper Woody]

Thanks, Sapper Woody, for the good advice. Re. Thaumaturge, I came to the same conclusion after some pondering and made a new build (see below), which should summon pretty well and yet do quite a bit more than just sit around (it's also a rare case of Fighter 5 being the best option, I think). A few questions to you and others in view of what you wrote:

1) My build is a Druid, not a Wizard for several reasons (mostly AB). Do you think that is a big problem re. the available summons and buffing spells?

I actually can't answer this, as I have no idea of the buffs/summons available to a druid. I have actually never played a divine caster, with arcane casters/gishes being my area of expertise.

2) You suggest that Contingent Summoning allows for more than one summon out. Is that true? I thought I had to take 5 lvls of Thaumaturge and get Planar Cohort in order to have two summons out. If Contingent is enough, is there any point beyond the permanency to take the 5th lvl? Does Planar Cohort allow for a third summon?

You know, now that you ask, I'm not sure if planar cohort or contingent allows you to have two out. I was just speaking off of memory. But, you'll likely want the permanent either way. It comes in handy for DM events, etc, where you can't rest for a long time.

The rest of your post are not questions within my area of expertise, so I'll leave them to others.

[Deathgrowl]

Being a summoner as a druid is, in my view, a waste of time. The best summon in the game is already available to you as a druid companion. You can buff that up to be on par with average fighter characters and still be fantastic at casting or just doing decent melee yourself in elemental, magic beast or dragon form. Adding another summon into that mix is going to reduce the amount of spells you have available for other things than buffs and it's going to be annoying with all the bad AI. Besides, the difference between the companion and the best summon you can get from a spell is enormous.

[Sapper Woody]

Being a summoner as a druid is, in my view, a waste of time. The best summon in the game is already available to you as a druid companion. You can buff that up to be on par with average fighter characters and still be fantastic at casting or just doing decent melee yourself in elemental, magic beast or dragon form. Adding another summon into that mix is going to reduce the amount of spells you have available for other things than buffs and it's going to be annoying with all the bad AI. Besides, the difference between the companion and the best summon you can get from a spell is enormous.

Hmm... what about a Druid Thaumaturge of Gond....

[Deathgrowl]

Druid of Gond...?

[Sapper Woody]

Druid of Gond...?

Not saying it would make sense. But would be fun, lol.

[Deathgrowl]

A lot of things people think sound fun are impossible, I guess.