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 Post subject: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:35 am 
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I'd like to discuss the scribe scroll feat in a constructive way and consider costs and benefits that will make the feat more viable. An example of where it is broken;

10 heal potions = 6500 gold, usable by anyone on "self"
10 heal (minimum CL 15) scrolls = 13,500 gold, requires healthy amounts of UMD, but you can use it on a party member.
A nice balance to Wands vs scrolls is that you can't get a healing wand, so that's helpful.

Now, heal may be a somewhat bad example in that we probably don't want everyone on the server able to run around and pretend at being clerics by spamming heal scrolls. UMD abuse is already very real. However, are the benefits of said scroll really worth more than double the price? Everyone already carries heal potions.

I understand that the cost of making scrolls is to keep casters from making and selling scrolls to merchants for unlimited cash. Keeping to the same example for simplicity's sake;

Level 11 Scroll of Heal 825g at the merchant in BG. Get a merchant friend to buy them and you can probably get them for around 500-600 which makes them a competitive bargain for the UMD-ist who wants to be able to save more than himself when a healer is not around. However, it does -nothing- for the the scribe scroll feat itself. At a cost of 1350 to make and a resale of 152 gold, the feat is again rendered useless.

A heal scroll at CL of 15 will heal 40 extra hitpoints. Let's do the math to see if you can make an argument for higher cost for higher CL.

40 * 10 is an extra 400 hitpoints.

400/110 = is less than 4 scrolls but you can't buy half a scroll.

So

10 Crafted Heal Scrolls for 13,500
14 Lvl 11 Heal scrolls for 11,500 (IF you buy at the 825 price and don't take a merchant friend, and you save yourself a feat in not investing in scribe scroll)

I think the cost of crafting scrolls could easily be halfed or even quartered and not make it viable to spam merchants. In the same example:

If a lvl 15 Heal scroll costs 675 to make, you aren't going to spam the merchants for a resale of 152 gold and lose over 500gold in the process. At about 340, the same argument holds.

Actually a price somewhere between 340-675, is a sweet spot. If you can sell a heal scroll to another player at lvl 15 for 825 that gives them 40 more hitpoints they might just buy from you. Let's consider the merchant angle:

Say a player merchant walks into Sorcerer's Sundries and buys a stack of Heal scrolls for 600 each instead of 825.

14 lvl 11 heal scrolls from the merchant to get the same number of hit points = 8,400
10 lvl 15 heals from you 8250

The gap is not huge, but it is enough to be viable. Now we'd have to consider more spells than Heal, but this is my opening argument to reduce the price of scribing scrolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:42 am 
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Thing is, 13500 gold is not that much these days, so it'd be more sensible for either heal potion prices to go up or gold incomes to lower.

Think about it, you open a few chests, any item with some mild magic properties might be worth 1300 gold on a vendor, no matter how trash and unusable the item is, most of which no player would use, you just need 10 of those and you've got the gold for 10 heal scrolls.


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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:56 am 
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We have discussed this many times in the past and actually did reduce the costs compared to vanilla for brewing potions, but not sure about scrolls. I originally argued for having a model of scribe scroll costing 10gp*SL*CL, but instead we went with 15gp*SL*CL. It should be noted that vanilla cost to scribe scroll is based on 25gp so it is still cheaper to scribe scrolls than the vanilla game. Instead of 1,350 per heal scroll it would cost 2,250, so BGtSCC has given a relatively large discount on scroll scribing costs.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:12 am 
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chambordini wrote:
Thing is, 13500 gold is not that much these days, so it'd be more sensible for either heal potion prices to go up or gold incomes to lower.

Think about it, you open a few chests, any item with some mild magic properties might be worth 1300 gold on a vendor, no matter how trash and unusable the item is, most of which no player would use, you just need 10 of those and you've got the gold for 10 heal scrolls.


Why spend the feat on scribe scroll so that you can spend 1350 (plus 9g for the paper) per scroll when you can buy the heal scroll from the merchant for 825, or just use heal potions for 650-670? How does your argument make scribe scroll a worthwhile feat?

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:17 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
We have discussed this many times in the past and actually did reduce the costs compared to vanilla for brewing potions, but not sure about scrolls. I originally argued for having a model of scribe scroll costing 10gp*SL*CL, but instead we went with 15gp*SL*CL. It should be noted that vanilla cost to scribe scroll is based on 25gp so it is still cheaper to scribe scrolls than the vanilla game. Instead of 1,350 per heal scroll it would cost 2,250, so BGtSCC has given a relatively large discount on scroll scribing costs.


Just because that is how it is done elsewhere and we do better does not mean it is right. Kudos though for realizing it was broken to begin with. Really, I do thank you for your consideration. It's hard to track all these things and to come up with good solutions.

1350g per scroll does not make the feat viable. Currently the only thing that keeps it alive is roleplay and a very small subset of uber-spells. Even those are so expensive and so short lived that no one bothers. How can we make it better?

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:32 am 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
Why spend the feat on scribe scroll so that you can spend 1350 (plus 9g for the paper) per scroll when you can buy the heal scroll from the merchant for 825, or just use heal potions for 650-670? How does your argument make scribe scroll a worthwhile feat?


There are other scrolls besides heal... Many are very useful for the UMD scroll user and worth the cost. It's the same issue as Master Alchemist... The elixirs you can make are fantastically useful since you can go up to 7th level spells and up to Caster Level 30, but they aren't cheap. For this reason majority of players skip it which is a shame. Many of the same players complain about the difficulty of the server which I find amusing since they are trying to solo a CR equivalent area for their PC without using consumables...

Think about a melee PC with scrolls of Regeneration and Stone Body to use alongside wands of deathward and freedom of movement (throw in a least mantle wand just in case). Would make most boss battles a complete non-issue, and the gold is easy to replace with the number of chests/loot containers in most dungeons. However, I suppose it's easier just to skip the boss because the mean area builders/developers made them too hard. :?

It amazes me folks aren't clamoring for CL30 elixirs of spell resistance on this server... 42 SR for 30 minutes in a potion! At any price it'd be good to carry around one or two for emergencies, but apparently 3,000 gold is too much to spend for 30 minutes of 42 SR...yet players are more than happy to spend over 100K for a cloak that takes up an inventory slot and only grants 32 SR. Note it would take 34 potions to exceed the price you paid for the cloak. I think sometimes if there is an item that is finite, even if overall it is about the same price as something that is infinite for the amount of use you will get people will always purchase the infinite item even if the finite one is FAR superior and unlikely to run out for the purchasers needs.

As Invoker would say, scribing scrolls is viable for those who understand it's value. The issue is the people scribing the scrolls are not also the people buying them. If your potential consumers fail to see the immense value of the various scrolls you can scribe for them there is not all that much you can do (aside from trying to educate them which rarely works). The conversation often comes up that 'mundane' melee classes are 'weak' because even though they can wreck pve pretty quick they can't compete with casters for true power....give them the ability to compete (AT A COST) and they fail to see the potential. What more can be done?

:think:

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:37 am 
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Personally i have not ever bothered with Scribing scrolls/potions because its really not worth the effort. The only time i bother is when i am RCRing my wizard which is an absolute pain in the butt because it cost a small fortune..

And again the money argument annoys me because the only people who have heaps of money are those of us who have been around long enough to practicly buy anything we want anyway so i dont see the harm in lowering the cost a little.

The only thing that is really value for money is wands (and yes im aware they are limited with spell levels but you can still get all the wands you need regardless)

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:44 am 
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chambordini wrote:
Thing is, 13500 gold is not that much these days, so it'd be more sensible for either heal potion prices to go up or gold incomes to lower.

Think about it, you open a few chests, any item with some mild magic properties might be worth 1300 gold on a vendor, no matter how trash and unusable the item is, most of which no player would use, you just need 10 of those and you've got the gold for 10 heal scrolls.

Strongly agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:47 am 
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Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
chambordini wrote:
Thing is, 13500 gold is not that much these days, so it'd be more sensible for either heal potion prices to go up or gold incomes to lower.

Think about it, you open a few chests, any item with some mild magic properties might be worth 1300 gold on a vendor, no matter how trash and unusable the item is, most of which no player would use, you just need 10 of those and you've got the gold for 10 heal scrolls.

Strongly agree.


I've said in the past NPC vendor prices for scrolls and potions should be higher to encourage seeking out a Player merchant of scrolls/potions, but it was seen as too harsh on newer players which I suppose is a fair statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:47 am 
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Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
chambordini wrote:
Thing is, 13500 gold is not that much these days, so it'd be more sensible for either heal potion prices to go up or gold incomes to lower.

Think about it, you open a few chests, any item with some mild magic properties might be worth 1300 gold on a vendor, no matter how trash and unusable the item is, most of which no player would use, you just need 10 of those and you've got the gold for 10 heal scrolls.

Strongly agree.


Pretty sure that amount of gold is do-able in 30mins, and you don't even need to be 30 for it.

Edit 12.000 in 25mins, + a pair of +3 boots, though only doable once per chest reset, add 5 more minutes and a few thousand more would be in the pot.

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Last edited by Progressive-Psy on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:52 am 
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Wolfrayne wrote:
Personally i have not ever bothered with Scribing scrolls/potions because its really not worth the effort. The only time i bother is when i am RCRing my wizard which is an absolute pain in the butt because it cost a small fortune..

And again the money argument annoys me because the only people who have heaps of money are those of us who have been around long enough to practicly buy anything we want anyway so i dont see the harm in lowering the cost a little.

The only thing that is really value for money is wands (and yes im aware they are limited with spell levels but you can still get all the wands you need regardless)


Indeed, and that is the true spirit of the discussion. Why should craft wand be the only viable caster craft.

Thank you, as someone who has been playing on this server for 2 years and still haven't found the pile of money some of the old blood on the server seems to sit on, it is nice to hear at least one older player say that money is indeed an issue for anyone who has not been playing forever, especailly since most of us are not sitting on any grampa gear.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:56 am 
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Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
chambordini wrote:
Thing is, 13500 gold is not that much these days, so it'd be more sensible for either heal potion prices to go up or gold incomes to lower.

Think about it, you open a few chests, any item with some mild magic properties might be worth 1300 gold on a vendor, no matter how trash and unusable the item is, most of which no player would use, you just need 10 of those and you've got the gold for 10 heal scrolls.

Strongly agree.


And yet again, it doesn't actually answer the argument.

10 heal potions = 6700
10 heal scrolls at a merchant = 8250
to craft 10 = 13,500

Why would you spend the feat if it was not given to you for this ability? Why would you -use- this ability except on a very small subset of scrolls or before you RCR your wizard to save his spell book?

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:16 am 
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Would it help Scroll "usefulness" if the CL max was raised to 20-21? Then Scrolls would sit between wands and elixirs for use value, and maybe justify the cost (and taking the Feat)?

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:18 am 
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Craft Wand is the same price as craft scroll... Craft Wand is base 750 gold which for 50 uses is 15gp base cost per use (*CL*SL). Now, you can recharge making it a bit cheaper, but it's really not materially so. Scrolls still have their place, especially since you can't have wands above 4th spell level. Potions are a little more expensive, but have their niche in that they can go up to Caster Level 30. People use wands because they have 50 charges in one inventory slot whereas potion/scroll stacks are capped at 50 and a scroll scriber couldn't scribe that many scrolls in a short time anyway...

If you could carry stacks of 99 scrolls and a spell caster could scribe those 99 scrolls with one spell cast (the way they create a wand with 50 charges with one spell cast) there would be some who would use scrolls instead of wands.

I personally still think scrolls should be 10gp base since they require higher UMD investment and this would put them as the cheapest option, instead of merely the same cost as wands. However, the bigger impact would be in allowing scrolls (and potions) to stack more than 10 so they take up less inventory space.

To Steve's point, I doubt it. Otherwise elixirs would be more in demand...

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:28 am 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
Thank you, as someone who has been playing on this server for 2 years and still haven't found the pile of money some of the old blood on the server seems to sit on, it is nice to hear at least one older player say that money is indeed an issue for anyone who has not been playing forever, especailly since most of us are not sitting on any grampa gear.


It was only last year's dusty tomes that I managed to hit 1m valuation across all of my characters in the vault. While there is grandfathered gear, a lot of it isn't all that grand in the scheme of what's since been released.

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