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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:30 am 
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Heck I think the feat becomes WAY more usefull if you lower it just enough to be beneath the the merchant.

If it costs 825 for a lvl 11 heal scroll, then let me craft it for 750-800. Give me some advantage to have the feat vs just having ridiculous UMD and buying all I need.

15*CL*SL = 825 would be exact cost for a cleric to make a level 11 heal spell. It would cost more for say a shaman or a druid, but I would expect them to concentrate on scrolls that are more class-specific. So get a merchant character to buy your heal scrolls for 600g and don't bother.

Or you can allow them to make their own at a better cost without the need of a purchase agent. Wait, I can make -better that what I get at any merchant? Now we are talking.

I like the 10*CL*SL formula, might even up it to 12 or 13*CL*SL. That just undercuts the NPC merchants to make it worth crafting without making it a think you can make serious coin off of, and yet you can make your uber scrolls at a more cost effective rate.

Now at 12-13*CL*SL, I'd also argue that anything over a level 5 spell should automatically be an extended spell version if the spell allows. I just don't know how complex that would be in your code base. 10*CL*SL I don't think that is necessary. The price is low enough to tolerate needing more scrolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:33 am 
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And again the money argument annoys me because the only people who have heaps of money are those of us who have been around long enough to practicly buy anything we want anyway so i dont see the harm in lowering the cost a little.




I disagree, if you wanna invest the time in it you can get it.

I just did Gnolls, orcs and goblins, I got 12.000 gold in 25mins, + a pair of +3boots, go through the temple/church thing near the goblins and you could add 2k more or so probably.

For 30mins a day, I could make over 3 million a year. If I wanted to or felt the need to.. 365*10k = 3,6million, that is not counting the better items you will find.

I don't want to, I'd probably end up smoking as many cigs as I do when I play League of Legends.

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Last edited by Progressive-Psy on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:37 am 
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Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
Tiberis79 wrote:
Thank you, as someone who has been playing on this server for 2 years and still haven't found the pile of money some of the old blood on the server seems to sit on, it is nice to hear at least one older player say that money is indeed an issue for anyone who has not been playing forever, especailly since most of us are not sitting on any grampa gear.


It was only last year's dusty tomes that I managed to hit 1m valuation across all of my characters in the vault. While there is grandfathered gear, a lot of it isn't all that grand in the scheme of what's since been released.


Fair point on the grampa gear. I will stand corrected there. However, If you actually keep those tomes because you are say... A summoner... (cough, shaman and others, cough cough) Tomes are an expense, not gold in the bank. A huge one at that since tomes can cost you 200 bags if you don't find them, a blue diamond and up to 500 bags to negotiate with a powerful outsider.

This is, however, a red herring argument. The argument is not cost per se, but cost in light of usefulness bench-marked against similar items and purchasable NPC consumables.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:38 am 
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Steve wrote:
Would it help Scroll "usefulness" if the CL max was raised to 20-21? Then Scrolls would sit between wands and elixirs for use value, and maybe justify the cost (and taking the Feat)?


You know, it might. Let me run some numbers and get back to this point. ((you are not being ignored!))

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:40 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
If you could carry stacks of 99 scrolls and a spell caster could scribe those 99 scrolls with one spell cast (the way they create a wand with 50 charges with one spell cast) there would be some who would use scrolls instead of wands.

I personally still think scrolls should be 10gp base since they require higher UMD investment and this would put them as the cheapest option, instead of merely the same cost as wands. However, the bigger impact would be in allowing scrolls (and potions) to stack more than 10 so they take up less inventory space.

To Steve's point, I doubt it. Otherwise elixirs would be more in demand...


No arguments here to anything said. 10*CL*SL would already be enough for me. Higher stacking limits would tickle me pink.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:42 am 
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Progressive-Psy wrote:
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And again the money argument annoys me because the only people who have heaps of money are those of us who have been around long enough to practicly buy anything we want anyway so i dont see the harm in lowering the cost a little.




I disagree, if you wanna invest the time in it you can get it.

I just did Gnolls, orcs and goblins, I got 12.000 gold in 25mins, + a pair of +3boots, go through the temple/church thing near the goblins and you could add 2k more or so probably.

For 30mins a day, I could make over 3 million a year. If I wanted to or felt the need to.. 365*10k = 3,6million, that is not counting the better items you will find.

I don't want to, I'd probably end up smoking as many cigs as I do when I play League of Legends.



I believe you are exaggerating the minimal amount of time that took you. Might believe an hour... Might.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:42 am 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
Tiberis79 wrote:
Thank you, as someone who has been playing on this server for 2 years and still haven't found the pile of money some of the old blood on the server seems to sit on, it is nice to hear at least one older player say that money is indeed an issue for anyone who has not been playing forever, especailly since most of us are not sitting on any grampa gear.


It was only last year's dusty tomes that I managed to hit 1m valuation across all of my characters in the vault. While there is grandfathered gear, a lot of it isn't all that grand in the scheme of what's since been released.


Fair point on the grampa gear. I will stand corrected there. However, If you actually keep those tomes because you are say... A summoner... (cough, shaman and others, cough cough) Tomes are an expense, not gold in the bank. A huge one at that since tomes can cost you 200 bags if you don't find them, a blue diamond and up to 500 bags to negotiate with a powerful outsider.

This is, however, a red herring argument. The argument is not cost per se, but cost in light of usefulness bench-marked against similar items and purchasable NPC consumables.


Sure, but my point is more toward that pile of gold you mention. Your pile is higher than mine and I've been here since the beginning.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:52 am 
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Aspect of Sorrow wrote:
Tiberis79 wrote:
Fair point on the grampa gear. I will stand corrected there. However, If you actually keep those tomes because you are say... A summoner... (cough, shaman and others, cough cough) Tomes are an expense, not gold in the bank. A huge one at that since tomes can cost you 200 bags if you don't find them, a blue diamond and up to 500 bags to negotiate with a powerful outsider.

This is, however, a red herring argument. The argument is not cost per se, but cost in light of usefulness bench-marked against similar items and purchasable NPC consumables.


Sure, but my point is more toward that pile of gold you mention. Your pile is higher than mine and I've been here since the beginning.


Dude... PM me, how much gold do you think I have??? PM and I will give you actual numbers. I played an archer primarily and my gold was sucked up in arrows until recently. We can settle this via PM and not distract the actual topic at hand.

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Last edited by Tiberis79 on Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 am 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
15*CL*SL = 825 would be exact cost for a cleric to make a level 11 heal spell. It would cost more for say a shaman or a druid, but I would expect them to concentrate on scrolls that are more class-specific. So get a merchant character to buy your heal scrolls for 600g and don't bother.


That is the exact cost to craft a scroll of heal today for a Cleric with Healing domain (15*5*11=825). Non-healing domain clerics cost (15*6*11= 990) If the cost was lowered to 10 it would be 550 and 660 if CL is 11. Obviously higher at CL15.

In any case, I will open a request in QC to discuss cost of scribing scrolls to see if 10 or 12 gp base cost is something that is desirable. As to the stacking I'm not sure if it's possible in more than 10, but it's worth asking.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Thank you for your time and consideration even if the QC team scoffs at the suggestion. I fully understand that coming up with solutions to complex problems will never make everyone happy. In fact, it likely comes off a thankless position to the volunteers that work so hard to make BG a great RP environment. I hope I at least presented my case with some class and openness to discussion.

To answer a point made about minimum CL. It really only helps lower level casters. The real power of scrolls is in the upper level spells anyway. Making them a tad more affordable and competitive with similar craft items gives the best across the board improvement. Thanks for the suggestion though, I had not considered it as an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:09 pm 
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*To the guy who mentioned SR*

Permanent 32 SR is a lot better then temporary 42 SR that will get removed from you as soon as someone casts a greater dispell or a mord, which 9 times out of 10 happens at the start of any battle pve or pvp. Thats why i always want items with permanent properties, anything you put on your gear from spells is useless by default and is thus a waste of spell slots and rounds. :snooty:

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:29 pm 
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V'rass wrote:
*To the guy who mentioned SR*

Permanent 32 SR is a lot better then temporary 42 SR that will get removed from you as soon as someone casts a greater dispell or a mord, which 9 times out of 10 happens at the start of any battle pve or pvp. Thats why i always want items with permanent properties, anything you put on your gear from spells is useless by default and is thus a waste of spell slots and rounds.


CL 30 means immune to Greater Dispel so it will only be stripped by Mords. If you are getting hit with Mords 32 SR isn't going to be all that much help anyway. 32 SR is worthless in PvP, 42 SR isn't much better as it will get stripped, but they have to cast a spell to strip it... 32 SR is like having 32 AC against a Barbarian with 50 Attack bonus.... It's not even going to slow an epic PC caster down, at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Every little advantage helps even if said advantage is minimal. And yeah pvp it helps very little but its super effective pve and since pvp is much less common then pve it has its uses.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:38 pm 
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V'rass wrote:
Every little advantage helps even if said advantage is minimal. And yeah pvp it helps very little but its super effective pve and since pvp is much less common then pve it has its uses.


42 SR is more useful than 32 in PvE... And since it is only removed via Breach or Mords at CL30 I would say that makes it very useful (I've not yet had it removed in PvE, but there are relatively few places where anything casts Mords and you can avoid breaches for the most part.)

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:40 pm 
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In answer to "why it's like this" in terms of vendor/crafter disparity it basically amounts to a lack of planning and cohesion in design. The disparity exists because vendor item values are determined by a set of 2das that multiply a bunch of numbers together based on the item type and what properties it contains. We didn't make it this way intentionally, and we didn't adjust the values in these 2da files at all. When area builders first put those Heal potions on vendors they should have added a fixed cost increase to them to make them equal in price to a Heal scroll, but the fact of the matter is that the designer didn't sit down and compare the cost of a Heal potion to a crafted scroll--neither Obsidian nor our own area builders.

The honest truth is when you're building a module things slip through the cracks and not everything can be adequately planned for. The cost should be the same (or the potion should cost a bit more), that much is certain, but it's the price of the potion that should go up, not the other way around. Being able to carry an infinite supply for 800 gold each is pretty ridiculous both mechanically and in terms of lore, they should probably cost four or five times that.

That being said, it is what it is and it's been like that for years. If I recall correctly we already lowered the cost of scribing scrolls from 25 to 15 to account for this "vendor disparity" and we're really going in the wrong direction at this point trying to decrease it further and further--we simply need to go through the vendors and raise the prices on things so that crafters can be competitive. On the other hand it's a tedious job, to be quite frank, as there are a lot of vendors in our module, so it may take some time, but I feel like it would be better than lowering the cost of crafting consumables further.

I have to say that I find the notion that gold is difficult to come by is unfounded, I spent 30 or 45 minutes on the Boareskyr Bridge killing the level 1 bandits yesterday and picking up their lootbags and sold the stuff to a vendor for 5000 gold and this is far from the most optimal scenario for earning money. At the end of the day BGTSCC is a game, and if a player doesn't really have the time/inclination to play the game and go kill monsters for an hour or two to fund his or her endeavors then that's not really something we can (or even should) solve through module changes.

So as far as I'm concerned, the cost of vendor supplies need to go up--not the other way around. :)

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