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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Endelyon wrote:
In answer to "why it's like this" in terms of vendor/crafter disparity it basically amounts to a lack of planning and cohesion in design. The disparity exists because vendor item values are determined by a set of 2das that multiply a bunch of numbers together based on the item type and what properties it contains. We didn't make it this way intentionally, and we didn't adjust the values in these 2da files at all. When area builders first put those Heal potions on vendors they should have added a fixed cost increase to them to make them equal in price to a Heal scroll, but the fact of the matter is that the designer didn't sit down and compare the cost of a Heal potion to a crafted scroll--neither Obsidian nor our own area builders.

The honest truth is when you're building a module things slip through the cracks and not everything can be adequately planned for. The cost should be the same (or the potion should cost a bit more), that much is certain, but it's the price of the potion that should go up, not the other way around. Being able to carry an infinite supply for 800 gold each is pretty ridiculous both mechanically and in terms of lore, they should probably cost four or five times that.

That being said, it is what it is and it's been like that for years. If I recall correctly we already lowered the cost of scribing scrolls from 25 to 15 to account for this "vendor disparity" and we're really going in the wrong direction at this point trying to decrease it further and further--we simply need to go through the vendors and raise the prices on things so that crafters can be competitive. On the other hand it's a tedious job, to be quite frank, as there are a lot of vendors in our module, so it may take some time, but I feel like it would be better than lowering the cost of crafting consumables further.

I have to say that I find the notion that gold is difficult to come by is unfounded, I spent 30 or 45 minutes on the Boareskyr Bridge killing the level 1 bandits yesterday and picking up their lootbags and sold the stuff to a vendor for 5000 gold and this is far from the most optimal scenario for earning money. At the end of the day BGTSCC is a game, and if a player doesn't really have the time/inclination to play the game and go kill monsters for an hour or two to fund his or her endeavors then that's not really something we can (or even should) solve through module changes.

So as far as I'm concerned, the cost of vendor supplies need to go up--not the other way around. :)


I like this option better than lowering costs for crafting, was just always under the impression it wasn't an option! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Raising the price at the vendors doesn't really help either.

Why would you use this feat at all when wands and potions severely out-compete you (wands at low levels and potions at higher levels) and the cost of crafting the really high, obscure spells is so high that most people baulk at buying them? If you raise prices across the board at the vendors by the same percentage how does that really adjust the crafting so that wands, scrolls, and potions are competitive with each other? The way I understand it, wands for spells level 4 and down, so scrolls have the market on 5 and up. Still, those scrolls are so expensive that the demand for them is minimal. So this feat is largely unused, except for a handful of spells and to save a spell book before RCR.

Let me use math again, though I already hear the groans;

Level 5 spell A costs 2000 to craft a scroll
Level 5 spell A costs 1000 to buy a scroll from the vendor

Clearly no one will ever craft that scroll

Level 5 spell A costs 600 dollars to buy in a potion. ...

If you double the price of consumables at the vendors the scroll costs 2000g and people still aren't going to craft it because there is an extra 9g charge for the blank scroll and the lost time resting and making scrolls. No one is going to buy the scrolls either because the potion (now 1200g) is 800 gold cheaper instead of just 400.

I actually think you were on track with the reduction as a simple solution, just didn't quite hit the sweet spot. The trick will be not lowering it so much that potions and wands become abandoned, which I don't think will happen anyway as potions have no UMD and wands have a lower UMD than scrolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
Raising the price at the vendors doesn't really help either.

Why would you use this feat at all when wands and potions severely out-compete you? If you raise prices across the board at the vendors by the same percentage how does that really adjust the crafting so that wands, scrolls, and potions are competitive with each other. The way I understand it, wands for spells level 4 and down, so scrolls have the market on 5 and up. Still, those scrolls are so expensive that the demand for them is minimal. So this feat is largely unused, except for a handful of spells and to save a spell book before RCR.

Let me use math again, though I already hear the groans;

Level 5 spell A costs 2000 to craft a scroll
Level 5 spell A costs 1000 to buy a scroll from the vendor

Clearly no one will ever craft that scroll

Level 5 spell A costs 600 dollars to buy in a potion. ...

If you double the price of consumables at the vendors the scroll costs 2000g and people still aren't going to craft it because there is an extra 9g charge for the blank scroll and the lost time resting and making scrolls. No one is going to buy the scrolls either because the potion (now 1200g) is 800 gold cheaper instead of just 400.


I feel like we've had two drastically different experiences. I buy scrolls all the time on my UMD characters--Divine Power, Death Ward, Energy Immunity, Heal, G. Resto, and Mass Heal are going to be your breadwinners on a divine caster. I'd happily pay 10k a piece for Mass Heal scrolls on consignment while playing my Bard, and I know there are others who would as well because that's the price I sold them for pretty consistently on my Techsmith. :b

We can take a look at balancing the cost of potions, wands, and scrolls between the crafted versions, but under my previous post a Heal potion will cost 4000 gold while the crafted scroll would only cost--whatever it costs. :D This would make crafting extremely competitive by comparison.

I feel like you're searching for an "everything gets cheaper for everybody and everyone wins" scenario where vendor costs are extremely low and crafted costs are even lower, and ultimately I don't see it as healthy for gameplay in the long-term. We already have an overabundance of consumables and UMD in general, way way more than is appropriate by lore, and way more than is appropriate from a mechanical perspective.

In lore a Shield wand or a potion of Heal is supposed to be a rare and exotic item that you use when your life depends on it--not something that is so standard that you add it into your "standing AC" calculation. In this regard we have failed the setting, and making crafting super cheap on top of everything from vendors being super cheap is just going to amplify that problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:50 pm 
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And yes, and I have said many many times, these are complex problems that were built in from the bare rails and I am not "blaming" anyone for them. I don't see how opening a discussion on how to make it better should be read as an insult to anyone for "not planning" or "not wanting to be fair". I only hope to come across as someone who is patient, and willing to openly discuss how to pick up those things between the cracks in ways that are globally thoughtful and adjust as we go.

I am sorry if anything I have written so far gave the indication that I was saying "you guys suck, look what you did!"

I have tried from the start to say, "This math doesn't add up... I know there's lots of balls in the air, can we make the better?"

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Kessa Gren - Kessandria "Trouble" Greenwood of the High Forest.
Linela Fyar - Fey Bard.
Marin Holly - Blood in the Shadows.
Suna - Nameless spear maiden of the Ghost Tree tribe.


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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
And yes, and I have said many many times, these are complex problems that were built in from the bare rails and I am not "blaming" anyone for them. I don't see how opening a discussion on how to make it better should be read as an insult to anyone for "not planning" or "not wanting to be fair". I only hope to come across as someone who is patient, and willing to openly discuss how to pick up those things between the cracks in ways that are globally thoughtful and adjust as we go.

I am sorry if anything I have written so far gave the indication that I was saying "you guys suck, look what you did!"

I have tried from the start to say, "This math doesn't add up... I know there's lots of balls in the air, can we make the better?"


Nah, I didn't come out of the woodworks to post because I felt insulted or anything, I just thought it was an interesting topic and wanted to add in my 2 cents.

Nothing I posted should be taken as an "admin call" either, I was just kind of explaining how I felt on the topic on a personal level. Chad opened up a discussion in QC already like he said he was going to and I want to see that discussion come to fruition. Perhaps in the end they will decide we should lower it after all. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Endelyon wrote:
In lore a Shield wand or a potion of Heal is supposed to be a rare and exotic item that you use when your life depends on it--not something that is so standard that you add it into your "standing AC" calculation. In this regard we have failed the setting, and making crafting super cheap on top of everything from vendors being super cheap is just going to amplify that problem.


Actually, that last bit is absolutely something i can get behind. As I said, the UMD abuse is real.

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Kessa Gren - Kessandria "Trouble" Greenwood of the High Forest.
Linela Fyar - Fey Bard.
Marin Holly - Blood in the Shadows.
Suna - Nameless spear maiden of the Ghost Tree tribe.


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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Endelyon wrote:
Nah, I didn't come out of the woodworks to post because I felt insulted or anything, I just thought it was an interesting topic and wanted to add in my 2 cents.

Nothing I posted should be taken as an "admin call" either, I was just kind of explaining how I felt on the topic on a personal level. Chad opened up a discussion in QC already like he said he was going to and I want to see that discussion come to fruition. Perhaps in the end they will decide we should lower it after all. :)


Totally appreciate you chiming in. Lowering it as little as 2-5 (from 15*CL*SL to 10-13*CL*SL) puts the cost of crafting a scroll just under the vendors. It's not going to make them a get rich quick item, and it's not going to lower them enough to sell to the NPCs for a profit. It does however increase the usefulness of the scribe scroll feat for personal use. It makes the high level spells a little more cost attractive without getting ridiculous. It was the best "simple" solution I could see to the current system that makes the scribe scroll feat worth having.

Your solutions are absolutely more lore appropriate and I would be glad to get behind them. I think the problem is that it would take massive adjustments to make wands and potions a rare "only if your life depended on it" item.

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Lannia Tannen - Bunnybow the vicious, scourge to tasty animals and talker to snarky spirit dogs.
Kessa Gren - Kessandria "Trouble" Greenwood of the High Forest.
Linela Fyar - Fey Bard.
Marin Holly - Blood in the Shadows.
Suna - Nameless spear maiden of the Ghost Tree tribe.


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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:16 am 
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Tiberis79 wrote:
Your solutions are absolutely more lore appropriate and I would be glad to get behind them. I think the problem is that it would take massive adjustments to make wands and potions a rare "only if your life depended on it" item.


Set base wand charges on crafted wands to 10 and recharge to 10. Problem solved...

Of course then wands become ridiculously expensive and it will take me even longer to ever finish my wand guide, so that would kinda suck.

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Tarent's Wands and Elixirs
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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:26 pm 
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I have lost a fight 2 vs 1 when I was still new on the server to some guy who used like 30 heal potions. Fun times :lol:

Yeah heal potions and wands were supposed to be rare, but I doubt there is anything that can be done other than increase the price, and that would just hurt new players who can't compete with the fortune of someone who has been playing for years.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of scrolls
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Not to mention players who have already bought hundreds of them at significantly discounted prices, assuming the prices go up.

PnP merchants usually sell their crafted stock for 2x base price, yet on BG merchants typically sell consumables for 50-75% of their craft value, thus making classes like Master Alchemist entirely useless in competition (unless one wants CL 30 elixirs!)

I liked what Sigil did, in that merchants had very expensive consumables and players could craft stuff for about half the price that merchants sold them for, thus driving a thriving player crafting economy. It would be nice if BG moved in the same direction, but there will always remain the case of the have/have nots when people buy in bulk before price changes to NPC consumable merchants goes in.

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