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 Post subject: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:41 pm
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The Breach Gnome class is nicely environment-dependent, but the granted bonuses and required feats balance is just not good enough to justify taking it over other classes under almost any circumstances.

I recommend two changes, one extremely small, the other a bit more of a power up.

1) Open up the bonus feat options to include all kinds of feat or at least all Fighter feats
2) Add damage to the Seal the Breach bonuses.


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 Post subject: Re: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:55 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm
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I believe Chamobrdini can help you with your Breach Gnome...

The issue is that Breach Gnome is a PRC, occupying only five levels and for those 5 levels, with proper positioning you gain +4 Dodge AC, +4 DEX, +4 AB AND Uncanny Dodge at a cost of Dodge (1 situation AC), Lightning Reflexes (+2 Reflex saves) and Improved Initiative (kind of a waste, but you also get a bonus feat at third level to make up for it.

We have had similar discussions around the Thayan Knight PRC and did not improve that class (other than to allow WF in any melee weapon rather than Longsword only.) You don't build 'just' a Breach Gnome, it is a part of a larger build and is plenty powerful. For example F12/BG5/AK10/R3 (Deep Gnome) Is a solid combo that will have plenty of feats, fantastic saves, evasion, etc... The AB and AC from seal the breach can also allow them to go for PTWF with IPA and still have strong Attack Bonus.

When thinking about the relative power of a PRC it's important to consider what combinations can be made with that PRC, not just examine the PRC in a bubble. If you compare it to what most other 5 level PRC's get you will note it's actually quite strong, but has the requirement that you need to manage your environment to gain those benefits, which makes for a good balance considering you can get +4 DEX/+4 Dodge AC/+4 AB which no other PRC offers for 5 levels.

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Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands


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 Post subject: Re: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:54 am
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Location: Songfarla
Biggest problem of breach gnome is that by gameplay design staying still against walls (which should really be understood more as against collisions) can be a very bad call. Mobility is very powerful and so is cutting line of sight every now and then.
Especially against spells.

Against melee mobs you can work it because they follow you around to your corners, but as you reach higher levels there'll be more magic casting type mobs and bosses that will not get into melee reach (though ranged breach gnomes can be a thing I suppose) and can do their damage from afar.

Won't even mention PvP, very easy for other players to remove that advantage.

My suggestion is to not build a character that has to rely on breach gnome's seal the breach as a character's bare "power necessity", just have it as an added thing on top.

But yeah the no mobility makes it harder to build for, it might look good on paper but the gameplay is the end deciding factor for the value it might bring.

I guess it's at the core of the class's essence to entice putting your gnome in a bad spot by giving it bonuses when doing what is otherwise a dumb combat tactic.

Side note: the bonus feat at 3 has some issue which I think is due to a wrongly configured 2da.


Last edited by chambordini on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:36 pm 
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I'm not sure it needs a buff to be honest, but it's not exactly overpowered, in paper you can do some powerful builds because breach gnome adds to defensive stats and you can do some offensive builds.

But breach gnome doesn't play well with sneaking even though it grants hide as a class skill, it requires 2 largely useless feats plus 1 that can help with prereqs, couple that with the fact that gnomes aren't great meleers by any stretch of the imagination, minus 2 str, small size so weapon usage is limited.

I do wonder why it grants bluff, hide and concentration at all. All useless.
To be fair I haven't tried using it with spellcaster classes or sneakers, I had the idea to do a monk/assassin/breach gnome but I just imagine it to be a bad idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I would argue R21/BG5/X4 would be kinda neat thanks to Hide in the Shadows... Basically has HiPS whenever it has seal the breach. X4 could be Fighter or Annointed Knight for a decent "Fighter/Thief" style Gnome.

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Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands


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 Post subject: Re: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:41 pm
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Thanks for the input/response, guys. I was aware of the possibilities of Breach Gnome but still thought it overpowered to the point of better being done without than with - except for RP reasons. This is confirmed by what I see in game (namely: never a BG yet). The following is my best attempt at a Breach Gnome with unique perks. It's good, yes, but still worse than similar builds that optimize another PrC instead.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?200024

I know that classes can never be 'balanced' in overall power. But with this class, like Harper Agent, I think we have something that's just below advantageous to take in most circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Improve Breach Gnome class!
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:47 am 
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What would it be better spending those five levels on? If you are expecting Breach Gnome to compete with a F/FB/WM/WD then I am sorry to say that won't happen and looking at your build I would say it is more than adequate... AC and AB are higher than most of my characters and I do just fine soloing most of the server. Personally I would not include haste wand in AC or AB calc since each charge only lasts 30 seconds and I would not include Dodge feat as it only applies to one enemy, but you're still at 52 which is more than adequate to solo most content. Use a mirror images wand and you are basically immune to pretty much all melee mobs and then using cloak of displacement will make you totally immune to melee for 54 seconds. Hitting that AC without a Shield? Fantastic! Frankly in many area's you'll be able to forego the shield wand and just activate it if/when a large group of mobs spawn. When you are only facing 1-3 at a time 48 AC will be plenty in most areas. However, if you're in a situation where you're surrounded you'll want the extra AC.

Now, as far as AB goes you are at 49 with Power Attack activated! Wow! With that AB you are likely to hit about half the time even with your 5th attack and about a quarter of the time with your 6th. With around 50 damage per hit most epic mobs will be dead in the first flurry of the second round (assuming 4 attacks land in rd. 1 and the 2 attacks in the first flurry of rd. 2 land).

The biggest issue with Breach Gnome is Caster mobs and archer mobs which won't necessarily chase you, but you CAN get them to by utilizing corners (much like a sneak). This has the added benefit of often forcing casters to waste their spells while you break line of sight until they run out of spells and give chase (then you kill them, quickly).

Sorry, but I think your build defeated your own argument. What PRC would give more than +4 AB/ +4 AC/ +4 DEX AND a bonus feat for 5 levels?

Also, just as a general point I think some players often forget... PRC's are not all there to be balanced against the top other PRC's. If everything was as good as AK/WoD where you are getting (essentially) the same number of feats you would get for 10 levels of fighter (3 bonus non epic feats in levels 1-6 + 2 Epic Bonus feats at 9/10 on top of ~2.5 damage) AND 4 skill points per level, AND opening up Tumble and Spellcraft the overall power level of the server would be completely out of whack. Every PRC does not need to do this and, in fact is better off adding flavor rather than adding more OP'ness. Tempest (as example) gives +2 AB/+2 AC and allows to build a GTWF fighter build while saving a couple points of DEX for five levels. Breach Gnome gives double these bonuses and +4 DEX, but to balance the larger bonus, they are given a situational rule.

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Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands


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