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 Post subject: Archmage spellshaping.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Could Mastery of shaping and elemental mastery be made to effect epic spells, and not potions of healing.

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 Post subject: Re: Archmage spellshaping.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:30 am 
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I escalated the bug with MoE and potions in 2014. Maybe it's not so easy to solve, or perhaps it was solved and broke again. Not sure.

MoS with any other spell but those it affects was deemed too powerful, and discarded for balance reasons. The unfortunate side effect is, this makes Hellball a very complicated spell to use in closed spaces, due to the huge radius.

But if you practice with it, I'd say 120 AoE dmg on avg which is reflex-based but cannot be avoided through Evasion remains a proper epic spell, on par with Greater Ruin (overall more powerful, but more situational due to ease of use and various resistances opponents might or might not have).

An excellent use I found for Hellball when I used it is to test the enemies: you check the damage per element, and load the appropriate Empowered Greater Fireburst with MoE and MoS to finish them off.

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 Post subject: Re: Archmage spellshaping.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:23 am 
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Not sure i see how hellball is to powerful for MoS?. In the end it is competing with other spells like vampire feast or epic lightning storm, which only targets foes by default and typically does more due to one damage type. An empowered or maximized sonic greater fireburst typically ends with a higher damage average.

Spells like firewall i could see being to strong but not hellball, seems more like an unintended over sight due to epic spells not using all the same spell hooks.

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~ Gabriella Lockhart ~ Head Mistress of Lockhart Academy, Agent of House Darius
~ Thrania Ju'eline ~ Morning Paladin
~ Shade ~ Oblivion Knight
~ Sathia ~ Joy Bringer, The Halls of Inner Light, Apprentice Sword Coast Arcane


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 Post subject: Re: Archmage spellshaping.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:18 am 
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ZestyDragon wrote:
Not sure i see how hellball is to powerful for MoS?. In the end it is competing with other spells like vampire feast or epic lightning storm, which only targets foes by default and typically does more due to one damage type. An empowered or maximized sonic greater fireburst typically ends with a higher damage average.


No.

No spell whatsoever is competing with VF. VF is far, far more powerful than anything else anybody can cast. In fact, it's KoS.

As for ELS, it's far inferior to Hellball. FAR inferior. Only lightning damage, and Evasion negates it, with Improved Evasion auto-halving it even on a failed save.

No way it's half as good as Hellball, sorry.

Greater Fireburst deals more damage. Except, it's centered on you, and it's only fire dmg (regardless of what an Archmage can do with it): you need to be basically in melee range to cast it, which is exactly where you don't want to be.

Aside from the colossal risk factor, Greater Fireburst isn't better than Hellball at all, not even with AM in it (still ONE damage source, still negated by Evasion/Imp. Evasion, on a lower DC than Hellball).

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Spells like firewall i could see being to strong but not hellball, seems more like an unintended over sight due to epic spells not using all the same spell hooks.


Yes, Cloud Spells would be immensely overpowered like that. Not even funny anymore.

But Hellball is far better than it seems.

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 Post subject: Re: Archmage spellshaping.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:23 am 
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Invoker wrote:
ZestyDragon wrote:
Not sure i see how hellball is to powerful for MoS?. In the end it is competing with other spells like vampire feast or epic lightning storm, which only targets foes by default and typically does more due to one damage type. An empowered or maximized sonic greater fireburst typically ends with a higher damage average.


No.

No spell whatsoever is competing with VF. VF is far, far more powerful than anything else anybody can cast. In fact, it's KoS.

As for ELS, it's far inferior to Hellball. FAR inferior. Only lightning damage, and Evasion negates it, with Improved Evasion auto-halving it even on a failed save.

No way it's half as good as Hellball, sorry.

Greater Fireburst deals more damage. Except, it's centered on you, and it's only fire dmg (regardless of what an Archmage can do with it): you need to be basically in melee range to cast it, which is exactly where you don't want to be.

Aside from the colossal risk factor, Greater Fireburst isn't better than Hellball at all, not even with AM in it (still ONE damage source, still negated by Evasion/Imp. Evasion, on a lower DC than Hellball).

Quote:
Spells like firewall i could see being to strong but not hellball, seems more like an unintended over sight due to epic spells not using all the same spell hooks.


Yes, Cloud Spells would be immensely overpowered like that. Not even funny anymore.

But Hellball is far better than it seems.


I will admit VF is the sole reason i picked it. the negating evasion/imp is nice but it's ruined by the multiple elements. Hellball is alright but i don't think it's pushing the point MoS shouldn't work with it. you your self said you used it to test elemental resistances, An epic spell to test elemental resistances?. Fireburst is centered on the caster sure, but it won't hit friends, you pick the element and it's not epic.

_________________
~ Gabriella Lockhart ~ Head Mistress of Lockhart Academy, Agent of House Darius
~ Thrania Ju'eline ~ Morning Paladin
~ Shade ~ Oblivion Knight
~ Sathia ~ Joy Bringer, The Halls of Inner Light, Apprentice Sword Coast Arcane


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 Post subject: Re: Archmage spellshaping.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:00 pm 
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ZestyDragon wrote:
I will admit VF is the sole reason i picked it. the negating evasion/imp is nice but it's ruined by the multiple elements. Hellball is alright but i don't think it's pushing the point MoS shouldn't work with it. you your self said you used it to test elemental resistances, An epic spell to test elemental resistances?. Fireburst is centered on the caster sure, but it won't hit friends, you pick the element and it's not epic.


I used it to kill people, mostly...but clearly, in an event against unknown enemies, you might want to have a spell dealing several types of damage contemporarily in the first 6 seconds rather than waiting longer to understand the situation.

Either way, Gr. Fireburst is dangerous (10 feet radius), low Circle (-4 DC) and on Reflexes (which means 0 dmg with Evasion rolls). 21 d8 dmg means 85 dmg on average, easily 120ish empowered. To pick the element you need at least AM 8, by the way...that's a big condition, since most Archmages stop at 4 or 6 (Wizards that don't go AM 10. Sorcerers tend to go to 8 pretty much all the time).

Hellball has a huge radius and does not need you to go melee. It's an Epic Spell (so the DC will be around 38-40, whereas your GF sits around 33 with the belt of Raumathar unless you have Epic Focus in Evocation, and at that point it will be around 35. DCs provided are for Wizards, with Sorcerers being a couple of points lower on avg). It's not negated nor mitigated by Evasion/Imp. Evasion. 40 d6 dmg means 120 dmg avg, and while it's true there are various elements, that constitutes an advantage as well, depending on the situation. The spell also works like a SLA, so it's unstoppable, and faster than a normal spell.

I'm not saying it's inconceivable to let MoS work with Hellball, even though I don't personally feel the need for it. But Greater Fireburst is nothing compared to that spell, even more so when things begin getting serious, with 60-70 dmg per hit and Mords flying around, when going melee to cast GF not only is less effective, but it even means suicide.

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