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 Post subject: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:45 am 
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Hello everyone,
I am creating this topic because the bug-fix one isn't appropriate for the discussion there. Also there seems to be very conflicting information about what does and doesn't transfer, from the team and from the Wiki.

Polymorph Mechanic
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-Monk AC is disabled during wildshape, polymorph and shapechange.
-Natural AC from Palemaster, Frostmage and Dragon Disciple is disabled during polymorph and -shapechange.
-Spellslot loss fixed.
-Item properties merge with new shape. Only best slot merges.
-Natural, Deflection, and Armor AC from items merge, dodge AC does not merge.
-Permanent weapon enchantments carries over to creatures who use weapons. Temporary --ones are removed to avoid an exploit.
-Weapon Feats: Unarmed do not convert to Weapon Feats: Creature.
-Damage Reduction derived from Shapechange now works.
-100% Spellcasting Failure has been added to Polymorph and Shapechange to prevent -exploiting.
-All forms have been rebalanced.
-Forms are selected through the feat Shape Shift, which is granted by the spells. For the duration this feat can be used to shift between all available shapes.


Now if you look at the mechanics, you might notice that everything that doesn't transfer over is mentioned specifically, not the other way around.

Also this: -Item properties merge with new shape. Only best slot merges. I am pretty sure was supposed to mean that everything merges including feats(and barring the specifically mentioned bonuses), but only best bonus out of gear counts i.e. best +Dex, best +Hide. Even with that if I get two items with Point Blank Shot feat, one of them counts. If this means best item counts (no matter if they share bonuses as Endellyon put it)? How exactly does game pick which item is best, are the shape's items automatically best?

Can we please get a clear response as to what then should count and what shouldn't and which of the forms need fixing then? Because I have poured a lot of gold into my gear and I would like to know if I should sell it for 1250 gold and grind few weeks again or not. Thank you very much.

PS: I really, really hate grinding, I would rather RP but I would also like to have a usable character when it comes down to it. So please, pretty please, let us know so I can get the grind over soon if needed.

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Last edited by DiceyCZ on Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:51 am 
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DiceyCZ wrote:
Can we please get a clear response as to what then should count and what shouldn't and which of the forms need fixing then? Because I have poured a lot of gold into my gear and I would like to know if I should sell it for 1250 gold and grind few weeks again or not. Thank you very much.


- Dodge boots do not transfer.
- Shield AC does not transfer (but maybe should based on Steve's detail posted)
- Natural AC from amulet will transfer, but only if the form has less than the amulet. So for instance troll form is given natural AC and therefore doesn't gain AC from amulet.
- While I have not found any forms yet where deflection AC does not transfer, I assume it has the same rules as Natural AC...Thus if a form is getting more Deflection AC than the item worn grants, the two will not stack.
- Testing items that give feats requires DM assistance as QC characters don't have the gold or ability to acquire items outside those available in QC store (which is basically just +4 items with no other bonuses). This will have to wait until a DM is available to assist in testing. However, based on Endelyon's post in the other thread my thought is feats granted from items don't carry over to forms.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:56 am 
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In which case it would have been very very nice if that was mentioned like the other stuff, because (And I can't stress enough how much I am grateful for the work behind the Polymorphing) I feel kinda screwed over, I am not a grinder but you want to have your character useful for events, RP dungeoneering etc. And for me, getting gear takes way, waaaay longer than leveling up.

So just saying, whether or not it works is secondary now, I think what needs to be said first is, whether or not it should work. If it needs to be tested in terms of power before deciding, then I am very sorry, I'll wait quietly and leave it here.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Hey Dicey, what kind of gear w/ bonuses/Feats do you want to transfer, or expected to transfer?

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:17 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
DiceyCZ wrote:
Can we please get a clear response as to what then should count and what shouldn't and which of the forms need fixing then? Because I have poured a lot of gold into my gear and I would like to know if I should sell it for 1250 gold and grind few weeks again or not. Thank you very much.


- Dodge boots do not transfer.
- Shield AC does not transfer (but maybe should based on Steve's detail posted)
- Natural AC from amulet will transfer, but only if the form has less than the amulet. So for instance troll form is given natural AC and therefore doesn't gain AC from amulet.
- While I have not found any forms yet where deflection AC does not transfer, I assume it has the same rules as Natural AC...Thus if a form is getting more Deflection AC than the item worn grants, the two will not stack.
- Testing items that give feats requires DM assistance as QC characters don't have the gold or ability to acquire items outside those available in QC store (which is basically just +4 items with no other bonuses). This will have to wait until a DM is available to assist in testing. However, based on Endelyon's post in the other thread my thought is feats granted from items don't carry over to forms.


Bear warrior player breaks in! (different playstyle, same transfer rules)

Half of shield bonus transfers (rounded down, but no less than 1), but you are getting full benefit from the "Shield" spell. Dodge AC is negated compeltely, which means not only ignoring the boots bonuses, but also passive abilities from other classes (like Dervish, Wilderness stalker, Phantom etc). All the other AC bonuses transfer, but don't stack with the bonuses the new form already has (meaning that only the biggest number would be used).

As for savethrows/skill bonuses, this is pretty random. For example, at my character willsave bonuses granted by amulet transfered, while skill bonuses/saves from other slots didn't. I reported about this to the QC team ages ago, but seems it is considered a feature, not bug. All the feats granted by items transfer (like Improved critical (unarmed), for example), although not all of them would work with the new form obviously.

Damage bonuses. Your current weapon is replaced by the new one depending on the form, but all the damage bonuses (except enchancement) you had transfer, meaning that if you had a weapon +4 EB, +1d4 (fire), that fire damage would transfer, while +4 EB is ignored and replaced with whatever the creature weapon grants. This also includes damage bonus from the spells like "Blade of fire" and "Frost weapon" and everything stacks, but mind that two sources of the same damage type don't stack (for example, if you have +1d8 fire from Flame weapon and +1d6 fire from spear, you'll only get +1d8, but using Frost weapon instead of Flame weapon in this case would give +2d7 in summ). I have heard that they made it so the bonuses from ranged weapons no longer transfer, but this must be tested. If your new form fights with bare hands/claws, it would benefit from Improved ciritical (unarmed), but beware of the Circle kick!

Be careful with Constitution items (and ESPECIALLY two Constitution items at different slots), it causes suicides sometimes.

I will add some text if recall any more tricks.

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Last edited by KOPOJIbPAKOB on Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Steve wrote:
Hey Dicey, what kind of gear w/ bonuses/Feats do you want to transfer, or expected to transfer?


I have got boots with Dodge
ring with Toughnes
bracers with Point Blank Shot (Which is incredibly important for my bow forms, because without it they are useless even in group, once something aggroes you, that -4 is really bad, not to mention trying to flank with them (AT levels) is also not so great)
I was also looking at the possibility of getting bracers with Deflect Arrows and sling with PBS instead.

Then there's armor with hide/ms
Ring with lockpick/disable device
Cape with CHA and diplomacy (for the RP forms or anything really) and of course regen

This all begun because unlike every other form Planetar and arboreal elf do not get feats/skills/regen from gear...so I reported it as a bug and then was told it's all intetionall and the other forms are broken. Even thought it totally contradicts the majority of forms and what the Wiki says.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:43 pm 
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Okay.

So personally, I see the issue with whether Items should apply based on both an OOC mechanics perspective (balanced or not mechanically) AND the "realistic" side, as in: "how can a Hook Horror wear a ring?"

Technically, I gather, polymorphing REALLY changes your form, and does the magic involved there literally meld Items into the very fabric of the new Form, or are these Items "displaced" while in the new Form? Asking this question and settling on an answer, could be enough to say: "Items will not transfer over to the new Forms, because "realistically" they would not fit the new form."

But I'd think what is most important in the Dev/QC discussion side is how current IG Items could power-scale the Form of Polymorph/Shapechange in such a way that a caster could "gear up" and then rofflestomp just as good as a melee build. Which would not be fair (my opinion).

However, one can't build a high DC caster AND be the best Polymorphing Transmuter on Faerun. You can be a almost-as-high DC caster and the best Transmuter, but you're splitting the difference in not specializing. And I think this is a good thing.

Personally, I don't reckon Point Blank Shot transferring over to be a game breaker. Toughness neither. Ability bonuses transferring doesn't seem like an issue either, since casters will be buffing up getting +4 applied from spells. Should Power Attack transfer? Maybe not.

The QC/Dev group won't give a final statement about what Custom Combat feats are OP and not, but only the Vanilla combat feats are transferring over to Polymorphing IF you have that naturally on the Character Sheet (not from Items). So I can assume that Gear bonuses in general is a difficult issue to respond to with a blanket statement because someone would have to go through every single thing out there and make a call over whether it is OP or not. And that sounds like a lot of work.

Anyway...what it looks like in the Polymorphing description is that there needs to be a more explicitly written statement that clarifies how Item Properties are different than Item Bonus Feats. And that the former transfer, the latter not.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Steve wrote:
Okay.

Technically, I gather, polymorphing REALLY changes your form, and does the magic involved there literally meld Items into the very fabric of the new Form, or are these Items "displaced" while in the new Form? Asking this question and settling on an answer, could be enough to say: "Items will not transfer over to the new Forms, because "realistically" they would not fit the new form."


Logically as it is "transmutation" I always saw polymorphing as taking the tissues and changing them into new body, taking the materials and changing them into new gear...frankly "reaplacing" rises a lot of thing...like where does the old gear go? where does the new gear come from?

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:13 pm 
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i think the easiest way to do this is not allow anything gear/feats etc to transfer at all. this lowers the amount a variables the Devs and QC need to account for when buffing/nerfing the forms. it makes sense logically as well and is not hard to justify that no items/feats can transfer. only spell focuses and certain and specific shapechanging class skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:26 pm 
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aaron22 wrote:
i think the easiest way to do this is not allow anything gear/feats etc to transfer at all. this lowers the amount a variables the Devs and QC need to account for when buffing/nerfing the forms. it makes sense logically as well and is not hard to justify that no items/feats can transfer. only spell focuses and certain and specific shapechanging class skills.


Actually, this would make it MORE difficult to balance. See, Shapechange is Druid and Arcane, thus you can have a Wizard, Sorcerer or Spirit Shaman (or Druid, but why?) So if no gear transfers we would have to look at the full arcane and druid spell list to make sure both types of shapechanger can reach a similar/respectable level of survivability, damage, etc. Thus far, based on what I have tested Nachti already did a really strong job of balancing the various forms to have a good mix of defense and offense. As M3nt has said many times we really owe both Nachti and Dedude a lot of thanks for getting them where they are. If no gear applies we would need to go back and actually rebalance based on this which would require a lot of rework on the forms.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 pm 
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i cannot see how removing variables can make it harder to get even. the spell lists are still there with arcane and druid books either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Either a lot has changed recently or the parallel with Bear Warrior is misleading, since the latter allows for and prohibits the transfer of different things (Phantom AC is transferred, for instance, but magical weapon damage or any feats on the weapon aren't).

I, for one, think the more stuff transfers the better - it encourages inventive tinkering and makes some items valuable for some that are useless for others, which is nice.

It would be good to have clear info on the aims of the designers for planning, though alternatively we could also just go by trial and error for a while and then have another RCR month :).


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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:35 pm 
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DiceyCZ wrote:
Steve wrote:
Hey Dicey, what kind of gear w/ bonuses/Feats do you want to transfer, or expected to transfer?


I have got boots with Dodge
ring with Toughnes
bracers with Point Blank Shot (Which is incredibly important for my bow forms, because without it they are useless even in group, once something aggroes you, that -4 is really bad, not to mention trying to flank with them (AT levels) is also not so great)
I was also looking at the possibility of getting bracers with Deflect Arrows and sling with PBS instead.

Then there's armor with hide/ms
Ring with lockpick/disable device
Cape with CHA and diplomacy (for the RP forms or anything really) and of course regen

This all begun because unlike every other form Planetar and arboreal elf do not get feats/skills/regen from gear...so I reported it as a bug and then was told it's all intetionall and the other forms are broken. Even thought it totally contradicts the majority of forms and what the Wiki says.



Be careful with +con and toughness items. I have died in the past. I was in Marut form, and had like 50 HP left, I changed shape so I could heal myself and BOOM, dead. Marut had like 110 HP, and my unshifted PC had about 180 hp. Figure out that madness.

I do find that Regen Cloaks do not work on Planetar form... I think it has to do with the wings of the shape... so cloak items do not work on that form. Other forms yes.

If the shape does not have a weapon, your weapon bonuses do not seem to stack.

Thrown weapons stack with ranged shapes.

Dual Wielding does not stack, only the weapon in your right hand.

Sneak attack belt DOES work.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Steve wrote:
The QC/Dev group won't give a final statement about what Custom Combat feats are OP and not, but only the Vanilla combat feats are transferring over to Polymorphing IF you have that naturally on the Character Sheet (not from Items).

The custom feats dont transfer to the forms by design. The fact that casters can even get those feats is a step over the line and definitely not the reason why those feats were implemented. Lets not discuss this further here so that the thread isnt derailed. Feel free to open another topic, however it has been already recently discussed.

Who said that feats from items dont transfer while polymorphed? Everything i tried - PA attack from an armor, Spell focus feats from belt are transferring to the forms, unless the forms have a similar item equiped. For example if a form has bracers already equipped, obviously any bonuses from bracers wont transfer since they are never equipped.

This link is accurate - https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Polymorphing.

Anything that is not working according to the info in that link, then it should be looked at, however it wont always mean that there is an issue since it might be by design. I think the table in that link needs to be updated with more details such as any others types of AC that the forms have.

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 Post subject: Re: Polumorph/Shapechange - gear bonuses
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:39 pm 
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mrm3ntalist wrote:

Who said that feats from items dont transfer while polymorphed? Everything i tried - PA attack from an armor, Spell focus feats from belt are transferring to the forms, unless the forms have a similar item equiped. For example if a form has bracers already equipped, obviously any bonuses from bracers wont transfer since they are never equipped.


If there is a list somewhere of which Shapes/Form have Items and what Slot, and those that don't, that would be rather handy to have available for the Player.

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