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 Post subject: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Sooooo...with the addition of umbrellas, I only just learned about the ability to modify the appearance of torches. I like all the banners and little things in the appearance change for them as they're quite cool, but it makes me wonder if it might be possible to include a model or models for canes or a walking stick? Goodness knows there are older characters and, in the case of my own character, characters with wounds that impair their movement where it would make a nice visual prop for them to have something helping support their weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Esp. since DMs banned Quarterstaves as 'weapons' on surface.

You're welcome to hobble around in UD with your walking stick tho :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:20 pm 
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I blame monks.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Tsidkenu wrote:
Esp. since DMs banned Quarterstaves as 'weapons' on surface.

You're welcome to hobble around in UD with your walking stick tho :twisted:


Actually had that problem a few times early one when trying to clearly represent Dove's dependence on her walking staff. Kind of got in the way of RP to be told to put the weapon away or be arrested. :P

And...yeah, no. You're welcome to sneak your way up to the surface though and burn. :3

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:56 pm 
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vindflickan wrote:
Actually had that problem a few times early one when trying to clearly represent Dove's dependence on her walking staff[...]

Admittedly, it really begs the question of where is it that quarterstaff, spear, and halberd users are exactly expected to sheathe/scabbard their weapons into to begin with? Likewise, if someone decided to use the string of a sizable draw-weight bow to loop it over their chest in order to carry the thing around , all they'd accomplish is putting some severe and undue pressure over their chest every time they try and take a breath. Not quite sure if this confirms Hammerspace to be a definite in-universe thing or not. Otherwise, perhaps all weapons come equipped with Immovable "in relation to your spine" Rods within their haft, which can be activated in order to secure them to your back when not in use? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:40 am 
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Presumably, one would just stack it to their pack. A quarterstaff was between 6 to 9 feet long ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterstaff ), which is ~1.8m to ~2.7m. So, if you tie it across you back, behind your adventuring pack, it should be fine. For spears/halberds, there's also sheathes which can be put over the blade part.


ANYWAY, I support this idea, vindflickan.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:14 am 
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Even if you put a covering over the pointy/bladed end of a polearm, you're still going to be carrying it in your hands. Likewise, I don't really see the guards stopping every farmer carrying a hoe, shovel, or pitchfork if they don't have it bound in a harness behind their backs, even though a hefty swing with any of the aforementioned would be comparable to that of a two-meter length of wood.

Rather than the effort of adding more assets to what torches may appear as, I think the simpler solution would be to have the scripts which check for carried weapons simply ignore ones that could be reasonably considered to need be carried in hand (if the goal indeed is to have more accurate aesthetic representations of character models when they are walking from point A to point B). There are plenty of quarterstaff appearances which already are usable as walking sticks.

Not to mention, considering the speed at which a character can draw a hotkeyed weapon (moreso if they're using any of the innumerable builds which don't even care for that, such as unarmed monks or pure spellcasters) it's not as if PCs are significantly disadvantaged with their weapons stashed in their inventory rather than actively slotted. Ultimately, it's a matter of the presentation of a character to others, and for certain weapon types, it wouldn't make that much sense to have them ditched in Hammerspace if that is an iconic aspect of how the player wishes their character to be perceived.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:18 am 
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vindflickan wrote:
Actually had that problem a few times early one when trying to clearly represent Dove's dependence on her walking staff[...]

You do not need to brandish a deadly weapon in order to show a character's dependence on a walking stick. You can simply purchase a Lantern Stick from the Sorcerous Sundries.

Or perhaps you can simply start the habit of typing the following:
a) [Leans on a walking stick.]
b) [Walks with a walking stick.]

After a while you can just type the above without much of an effort or even a thought. Not to mention that if you play in windowed mode and use the client extension, you can have a text file open with often used phrases.

Oh, and does that 'walking stick' by any chance come with few extra spell slots and/or bonuses to your primary spell casting stat? Hmn? HHHHHHHMMMMMMMN?

If yes, how is it any different to the Bastard Sword with +4 charisma on it, along with few extra Favored Soul spell slots on a Favored Soul character? After all, the Favored Soul could also need a 'walking stick' after a long day of loot running and what not. :roll:

Svabodnik wrote:
Admittedly, it really begs the question of where is it that quarterstaff, spear, and halberd users are exactly expected to sheathe/scabbard their weapons into to begin with...

Are you aware of the definition of the word brandish?

"Brandish, to wave or flourish a weapon in a triumphant, threatening, or ostentatious way"

If a character has a weapon equipped that character is brandishing it. If a character does not have it equipped then that character is not. This means that whenever a character has a weapon out that character is automatically emoting some degree of hostility by waving a weapon around.

Additionally, you can drag that weapon from your inventory to a quickbar, which means that you can equip and unequip it with but a mouse click. Some of those quickbar slots are even automatically bound to your keyboard, so you can brandish a weapon with a single press of a key. Not to mention that if you happen to feel you are running out of quickbar slots, you can unlock some more through the options and restart of the game to make them active. You can even use some UI overrride that greatly expands the size of your quickbars.

Therefore, you've understood this whole issue completly wrong. It is not about having a weapon tied to a body, it is all about not emoting hostility when a character is not being hostile. Not to mention that when a character does intend to emote hostility it can be done with a single click or press of a button. It just creates better quality role-play and that is all there is to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 am 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
[...]If a character has a weapon equipped that character is brandishing it. If a character does not have it equipped then that character is not. This means that whenever a character has a weapon out that character is automatically emoting some degree of hostility by waving a weapon around.[...]

Had to double check to make sure I didn't miss that as being previously mentioned anywhere in the General Server Rules, DM Rulings, or PvP Rules and Guidelines. Closest I could find was that drawing a weapon "during hostilities" may be taken as auto-consent for PvP (much like resting, which certainly isn't offensive in its own right). It's a decent rule of thumb, but not entirely consistent, and context would have to be taken into consideration in either case.

For two quick examples, I've always assumed that guard NPCs that have their weapons drawn aren't menacing passersby with them, but are instead keeping them on hand. I don't imagine the Flaming Fist instructs their halberdiers to stand around in a ready battle stance, speartip forward to threaten any chicken that dares saunter on by. I've always envisioned them either leaning against their polearm, or having it resting on their shoulder during patrol.

Likewise, walking past another adventurer on the road who has their weapon drawn, I've never assumed that they are emoting intent to run my character through just as they did some goblin a few minutes ago. While they may have a greatsword equipped, it's more likely that they are holding it in many of the ways that one would carry such a weapon, rather than swapping between ochs stance and fool's guard while we stop for a quick chat.
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In general, there is typically sufficient context to determine whether there is hostile intent or not. Much like one can emote *Strolls on by, their knobby cane leaving deep impressions in the mud* while having nothing equipped, they can likewise do so with a quarterstaff in their hands. Overall, it would serving just as much of a rough visual guide to their character as the hour they spent trying to piece something together with the appearance changer that would never actually do what they envisioned justice. As I mentioned before, and you said so yourself - hotkeyed weapons are sufficiently quick to draw and put away that there's little mechanical advantage or disadvantage tied to it. Overall, it'd rather be an aesthetic choice, and one I do not have a problem with people making.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
vindflickan wrote:
Actually had that problem a few times early one when trying to clearly represent Dove's dependence on her walking staff[...]

You do not need to brandish a deadly weapon in order to show a character's dependence on a walking stick. You can simply purchase a Lantern Stick from the Sorcerous Sundries.

Or perhaps you can simply start the habit of typing the following:
a) [Leans on a walking stick.]
b) [Walks with a walking stick.]

After a while you can just type the above without much of an effort or even a thought. Not to mention that if you play in windowed mode and use the client extension, you can have a text file open with often used phrases.


That's what I did and yet people continued to forget and miss it. It's why having a clear prop would be useful for characters that use a walking stick. And using the torch slot means no hidden extras.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Svabodnik wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
[...]If a character has a weapon equipped that character is brandishing it. If a character does not have it equipped then that character is not. This means that whenever a character has a weapon out that character is automatically emoting some degree of hostility by waving a weapon around.[...]

Had to double check to make sure I didn't miss that as being previously mentioned anywhere in the General Server Rules, DM Rulings, or PvP Rules and Guidelines. Closest I could find was that drawing a weapon "during hostilities" may be taken as auto-consent for PvP (much like resting, which certainly isn't offensive in its own right). It's a decent rule of thumb, but not entirely consistent, and context would have to be taken into consideration in either case.

THE LAWS OF THE LANDS lists brandishing under disorderly conduct.

There are even in game scripts that automatically send guards to put an end to disorderly conduct such as brandishing weapons.

This is not something that was whipped up yesterday. It has been in place for years, and pretty much from the first day of the server to boot.

Having weapon equipped is a sign of hostility, and it is a good rule of thumb because it is bound by basic common sense. Just imagine going somewhere everyday and safe... and then stumbling into someone that is waving a gun or other deadly object around, pointing it at other people, if not out right shoving it into your face.


Svabodnik wrote:
For two quick examples, I've always assumed that guard NPCs that have their weapons drawn aren't menacing passersby with them, but are instead keeping them on hand. I don't imagine the Flaming Fist instructs their halberdiers to stand around in a ready battle stance, speartip forward to threaten any chicken that dares saunter on by. I've always envisioned them either leaning against their polearm, or having it resting on their shoulder during patrol.

At this point of time in the Forgotten Settings timeline, the Flaming Fist are the strongest mercanary force in the realms. Basically, the side that has hired the Flaming Fist usually wins the conflict.

Now, they've taken some hits over the years as far as the server's own timeline is considered, but the Flaming Fist have lingered on and Baldur's Gate remains independent. It stands as testament that the nature of the Flaming Fists has not changed, they are well trained and regulated armed force of the lawful alignment. The Flaming Fist remain alert and they do not lean against their polearms, they stand upright and hold their weapons accordingly.

Thus the weapons that the members of the Flaming Fist 'brandish' are actually an in game reminder that the laws are enforced in the city of Baldur's Gate. (Which is lawful neutral in its over all alignment.)

If you want some visual aid for the level of training the Flaming Fist have in the art of war, I suppose you could watch this clip from the Game of Thrones tv-series:



A dragon breaths fire and the troops still hold a perfect line. Just imagine being there when a guy on your left or right is burning to ash and you still stand in place holding the line instead of simply running away in horror. Basically, without that dragon, those barbarian horsemen with their tiny weapons would not have been able to pierce the ranks of that spear wall. Horses do not like running into solid objects, and even less so when those objects have pointy stabby sticks.

Svabodnik wrote:
Likewise, walking past another adventurer on the road who has their weapon drawn, I've never assumed that they are emoting intent to run my character through just as they did some goblin a few minutes ago. While they may have a greatsword equipped, it's more likely that they are holding it in many of the ways that one would carry such a weapon, rather than swapping between ochs stance and fool's guard while we stop for a quick chat.

This server has PvP consent rules, which means that a fellow player has to dance through some hoops before they can attack your character. This is out of character information. Therefore, were you to approach the above situation with a slightly more serious focus on actual role-playing, perhaps you could consider the following questions:

1) Do I know that armed and blood soaked individual?
2) Does he bear any symbols that mark affliation?
3) What if he is a bandit that just slew a goblin?
4) How can I be sure he is not a threat to me?

Now, presence of goblins or other threats is a good reason to keep your weapons ready. But it just means that the hostility evoked by brandishing a weapon needs to be mitigated in some other fashion, such as with words for example.

Finally, we should not forget that many builds do fine, if not great, without a positive wisdom modifier. This server also comes with a stong encouragment to role-play your character sheets. You should not assume that the approach a low wisdom ability score adventurer has to things is in any way sensible or even within bounds of reason.

But I must tip my hat to the many players who role-play that low-wisdom ability score of their characters just truly brilliantly.

Svabodnik wrote:
In general, there is typically sufficient context to determine whether there is hostile intent or not. Much like one can emote *Strolls on by, their knobby cane leaving deep impressions in the mud* while having nothing equipped, they can likewise do so with a quarterstaff in their hands. Overall, it would serving just as much of a rough visual guide to their character as the hour they spent trying to piece something together with the appearance changer that would never actually do what they envisioned justice. As I mentioned before, and you said so yourself - hotkeyed weapons are sufficiently quick to draw and put away that there's little mechanical advantage or disadvantage tied to it. Overall, it'd rather be an aesthetic choice, and one I do not have a problem with people making.

If the quarterstaff is in their hands, I assume they are leaving those deep impressions in a manner that would suggest that the mud under their feet had stolen thier sweet roll, murdered their parents, or something along those lines.

The insistance to be allowed to wield weapons has less to do with aesthethics than it has to do with in game mechanical advantage. For example the extra spell slots and primary casting ability score bonuses mentioned earlier. Additionally, equipping weapon basically cancel your melee attacks for the rest of the round. Therefore, a 'polearm' Frenzied Weapon Master would have clear PvP advantage over to the 'longsword' Frenzied Weapon Master if one is allowed to brandish weapons while the other is not.

Finally, if characters are not automatically wielding their weapons, it creates another step for the players to take before they engage in PvP. Thus it is little less about who manages to get the first dice rolls in, and a little bit more about having more time to find alternative solutions to in character disagreements. Typing things out takes time, and is something you do not have if you need to get the first rolls in.



It really is one solid rule of thumb. If you have a weapon 'equipped' then you are automatically emothing some degree of hostility.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
[...]THE LAWS OF THE LANDS lists brandishing under disorderly conduct.[...]

I think there is a bit of breakdown in conversation, so let us clarify the terms to be used:
Brandish - wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement
Hold - grasp, carry, or support with one's arms or hands.
Thus, all items that are brandished are held, but if you are holding an item, that does not mean that you are necessarily brandishing it. The rules that I was looking for was to see if having a weapon equipped is for certain brandishing it, and that does not seem to be the case - or at least was not sufficiently clarified.

Of course, brandishing a weapon would get the guards called on you. In fact, if someone was brandishing a torch, an umbrella, or a barstool, they would likewise be arrested for the safety of the public. Conversely, if one were arrested for holding a weapon, there would be no weaponsmiths or arms merchants working in town at all, and as was mentioned previously, it would make sense that certain weapons would be held in order to transport them (whether they have a sheathe over their pointy bits or not).

The aforementioned scripts are the exact reason for my first comment, as they consider all equipped weapons as being brandished (whether they are RPed as being so or not). One cannot have staves equipped as to show them being held by the character, for use as a walking stick. The initial suggestion was essentially to add canes/staves as visual assets to another item. I figure cut out the middle man and simply put some exclusions in the scripts if such weapons are to be used cosmetically, if the goal is fashion.

Sun Wukong wrote:
[...]The Flaming Fist remain alert and they do not lean against their polearms, they stand upright and hold their weapons accordingly.[...]

The reason one would assume that they rest the butt of their polearm on the ground when not in use, or lean it against their shoulder on the march, is not because they are lazy, but because they are not stupid. Even the honor guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier shoulder their rifles when marching from point to point. Bearing a weapon at the ready for several hours, while probably doable with enough discipline and training, doesn't do the arms much good for when it is actually time to use said weapon.

Sun Wukong wrote:
[...]This server has PvP consent rules, which means that a fellow player has to dance through some hoops before they can attack your character. This is out of character information. Therefore, were you to approach the above situation with a slightly more serious focus on actual role-playing, perhaps you could consider the following questions[...]

And it is because of the consent rules, and the fact that it is an RP server, that I don't see much of an issue with having a weapon equipped to denote as holding it. I expect there to be sufficient RP and context provided to get to the "during hostilities" part of the PvP Rules and Guidelines, at which point it ought be certain whether the weapon is being held or brandished, and whether the character with the weapon equipped is a reasonable fellow or a maniac. Likewise, by not automatically assuming that anyone with a visible weapon is emoting hostility, I figure it would actually lead to more peaceful resolutions, as that is one less thing to immediately take offense to.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Oh, boy. It's simple, guys. Due to mechanics, if you're not wielding a weapon (it's not on the weapon item slot), then you aren't brandishing it. Quit arguing over it, yeesh.

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 Post subject: Re: Torch Magic and Walking Sticks
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:21 pm 
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I am pretty sure OOCly claiming that another player's character is brandishing a weapon, while their player RPs it as carrying it non-threateningly breaks the rule of "Don't godmod others' PCs."

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