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 Post subject: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:05 pm 
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hello there,

been looking into making a musician and merchant.

been looking around in the custom parts of the foum and have not been able to find the lyric thaumaturge PrC among the available classes. how come?

M


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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:35 pm 
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We don't have every Kaedrin PRC.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:43 pm 
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heya,

well... uhm yeah, obviously?

but how come? it is a very cool PrC.

i guess what i am asking is, is there any reason it was left out, balancing issues?


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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:23 am 
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It is a really cool PRC and it would be a definite RP and mechanical boost for those who want to create a caster oriented bard. I am unsure how it might influence balance as it is now.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:59 am 
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It's actually a pretty strong PRC based on Kaedrins description. Melodic Casting essentially means the bard can dump concentration giving more skill points to use elsewhere... In addition it retains medium BAB and continues to gain songs per day (though based on other Bard PRCs I don't think this works correctly). Why wouldn't you want to take this PRC? You gain the equivalent of 5 feats worth of bonus spell slots, a reserve feat, semi-empowered sonic damage spells and practiced caster at the expense of taking one feat which frankly I think you'd take even if you weren't going to go for the PRC (because more skill points, yay!) Personally I would probably go for B20/R3/LT7...yes, you have to spend a feat on Practiced Caster, but you can still get requiem...

If such a PRC were to be implemented on this server I would argue for a change to the melodic casting feat to do something besides nullify the need for bards to max concentration. I would also likely argue to make LT have low BAB progression or otherwise make some kind of tradeoff for all the really nice benefits they gain.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:08 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
If such a PRC were to be implemented on this server I would argue for a change to the melodic casting feat to do something besides nullify the need for bards to max concentration. I would also likely argue to make LT have low BAB progression or otherwise make some kind of tradeoff for all the really nice benefits they gain.

How about something like that the bard has to actually hold an instrument for it to work. (Flute, Lute, Drum.) Now, when a character is holding an instrument in NWN2 they can still perform unarmed attacks, which in turn makes it necessary to get Improved Unarmed Strike feat or suffer from those Attacks of Opportunity.

Thus the big question is, would those potential Bard 7/Stormsinger 10/Fist of the Forest 3/Lyric Thaumaturge 10 builds be a considerable balance concern? I think they would only get 24 uses of bard songs per rest.



Anyhow, in PnP, the Lyric Thaumaturge gets to know one Wizard/Sorcerer spell per spell level. Which is the primary perk of the build, because you could have a Bard that can cast Magic Missiles or Fireballs, as one example, or perhaps aid the party with Greater Magic Weapon and so forth.

Also, the Sonic Might costs one bard song per spell affected. Thus one bard song would boost our server's 24d6 Greater Shout to deal a total of 30d6 Sonic damage. (105~) If it works with metamagic, you could theoretically have a Bard's Empowered Shout deal 18d6*1.5~ + 6d6 Sonic damage. (115.5~) Oh, and Arcane Scholar Sorcerer could cast Empowered Greater Shout that deals 24d6*1.5 damage and change the damage type with Arch Mage levels. (126~)

Thus, if a single cast of Sonic Might boosted spell consumes a single bard song, I do not think the ability is all that over powering anymore. You literally have less bard songs to use on better things, like some epic songs.

Oh, in PnP, the PRC does not get reserve feats and Kaedrin has not actually implemented the Melodic Casting feat of the PRC. Basically, you spend a bardic song to increase the DC of your next illusion/enchantment spell by 2. I think you could get rather high DCs with Epic Inspiration on a charisma based Bard 27/Blackguard 3 build, even though there is not much you can do against mind immunity.

Kaedrin's implementation is also missing the extra 6th level spell slot.

Thus if this PRC is added, I think it might be better for it to be done from scratch.



Anyhow, it would cater to those players who see their bards more akin spell casters and less EDM or Strength based bards.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:41 am 
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I also think that doing it from scratch would be better as I can't see the appeal of Kaedrin's version except for min maxed STR bards who can dump CHA and INT without big consequences (less skill points needed, free spell slots), essentially defeating the purpose of the PRC which is supposed to be caster bards.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Yeah something more PNP based and less Khaedrin's influence and a dream would come true!

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Valefort wrote:
I also think that doing it from scratch would be better as I can't see the appeal of Kaedrin's version except for min maxed STR bards who can dump CHA and INT without big consequences (less skill points needed, free spell slots), essentially defeating the purpose of the PRC which is supposed to be caster bards.


Incidentally, in K-Pack servers, you do actually use Lyric Thaumaturge for caster bards.

You use Caniath Lyricist (spelling!) for STR bards, owing to the fact that it gives H-BAB and bard progression.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:23 am 
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Canaith Lyrist requires evasion... In Kaedrin's Pack and can be used to progress divine spell progression. It is a bit like the Frost Mage PRC in that regard. It is based on the Fochlucan Lyrist PRC that actually provides dual spellcasting progression to Bardic and Divine spellbooks, which in turn is based on the first edition bard that required you to be human or half-elf, have the following ability scores Strength 15+, Wisdom 15+, Dexterity 15+ and Charisma 15+, Intelligence 12+ and Constitution 10+, then start as fighter and dual class into thief, and dual class again into druid.

Perhaps custom Fochlucan Lyrist PRC could be added also. You know, one that requires something like 5 levels of Fighter but not more than 8, then at least 5 levels of Rogue or Phantom but not more than 9, and then at least 5 levels in druid or spirit shaman before they can take the Fochlucan Lyrist PRC. :lol: The PRC could provide substantial lore bonuses, offer few additional fighter bonus feats, extra sneak attack dice, druidic spell progression, with some extra caster levels by spending their wildshapes, and some custom songs on top.

Requirements: Weapon Specialization (Fighter 4), Sneak Attack 3d6 (Rogue/Phantom 5), 3rd level druidic spells, (Druid 5/Spirit Shaman 6) (With some skill requirements too...)

You could have something like: Fighter 4/Rogue 5/Druid 11/Fochlucan Lyrist 10.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:10 pm 
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elloes all,

thanks for the interesting responses to my thread.

i guess the conclusion is, it is not likely to see a LT on BG anytime in the near future.

i would like to see it introduced, i am creating a bard caster/Merchant and i find it hard to make a good caster bard without this PrC.

thx


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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Bard 20/Pale Master 10 works with Greater Spell Focus Necromancy and Enchantment. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:47 am 
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Heya,

I loathe the Pale Master PrC, undead scum :)

And the type of caster bard i would like to make is not going to be sinster, but fun!


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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:48 am 
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TheAuthor wrote:
It is a really cool PRC and it would be a definite RP and mechanical boost for those who want to create a caster oriented bard. I am unsure how it might influence balance as it is now.


There is no balance is game. Balance in this game means we can kills each other on equal footing in a pvp session or we can all solo. So far the census have repeatedly noted, some classes fair well better than others.

Lyric Thaunmaturge is pretty weak as I've played it. (along with several bard various to epic levels) All it does increase the damage of the Bard's sonic spell damage so unless you go full Charisma, there is nothing to worry about.


Last edited by ARHicks00 on Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: lyric thaumaturge
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:54 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
It's actually a pretty strong PRC based on Kaedrins description. Melodic Casting essentially means the bard can dump concentration giving more skill points to use elsewhere... In addition it retains medium BAB and continues to gain songs per day (though based on other Bard PRCs I don't think this works correctly). Why wouldn't you want to take this PRC? You gain the equivalent of 5 feats worth of bonus spell slots, a reserve feat, semi-empowered sonic damage spells and practiced caster at the expense of taking one feat which frankly I think you'd take even if you weren't going to go for the PRC (because more skill points, yay!) Personally I would probably go for B20/R3/LT7...yes, you have to spend a feat on Practiced Caster, but you can still get requiem...

If such a PRC were to be implemented on this server I would argue for a change to the melodic casting feat to do something besides nullify the need for bards to max concentration. I would also likely argue to make LT have low BAB progression or otherwise make some kind of tradeoff for all the really nice benefits they gain.


1. Melodic Casting isn't overpowered as it works just like concentration. (I had this feat too) In addition, Bards don't have a whole lot of useful options with an extra 33 skills. As a bard you're looking at Listen, Diplomacy, Bluff, Concentrate, Open Lock 16, Tumble, Heal, and Lore: Arcana, and Spellcrafting. The other skills are garbage to a Bard and a Hide/Move silent are no use to them since they got invisibility.

2. Actually, it high will save I think, low BAB, and d4 HP. I don't see the imbalance issue, but it seems most people are staring at the both Melodic Casting and the damage. I've played Kaedrink's Pack other servers prior to their fall. Not as overpowered as some of the other classes in his pack.


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