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 Post subject: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:13 am 
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With the upcoming free RCR phase, can someone answer that question:
Will these items be available in a store ?


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:58 am 
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Not in that time frame, no.


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:09 am 
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but will they be added at all ?


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:36 am 
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I think the idea might've been to add them all at some point, but I don't think we've got any concrete plans for that atm.


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:37 am 
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But that's not to say it can't be discussed. Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:37 am 
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I'll give a shot at a reply, but in courtesy of those who would prefer to avoid a torrent of verbal diarrhea while scrolling past the page, I'll keep it in spoilers.

Preface:
Hidden: show
I'll preface this in stating that this is certainly not a ball in my court to debate. My last pass through this server was for only a couple of months, a year or so ago, and I'm only just getting back into the swing of things. As such, I'm only just recollecting the usual issues of balance (and imbalance) with NWN2. I'm sure the folks on the QC team are of better sort to understand and comment on this issue.

Likewise, I would have to state that I strongly prefer to go through content solo*. This means that outside of consumables or builds that would offer such things to themselves, my sources of Deflection and Natural AC tend to come from items, rather from being partied with a Cleric for Deflection through Shield of Faith, or natural AC stemming from Tortoise Shell or Spiderskin. As such, I tend to prioritize those when available, which may relate to bias in item selection.

Even without either of those things, from my limited experience, having multiple players tends to faceroll content with no problem. Thankfully, this means that one can both comfortably run content solo with proper preparation, or in groups with proper cooperation. Still, while a +1 bonus on a d20 roll to meet a DC can be said to be a measly +5% success rate, the difference between being hit on a 19-20 or being hit on a natural 20 alone makes for a drastic change in survivability. As one progresses to areas of harder content, and more competent foes, even a +1 bonus becomes a worthwhile endeavor.

The INT, DEX, WIS items not missing:
Hidden: show
Headband of Intellect for +4 INT (head/helmet slot). Nothing specific to say about this slot. The AC bonus that it would otherwise offer is Deflection, which is quite common among competing accessories (ring, cloak, belt, gloves**, etc.). Of the three +4 stat items, this is the most forgiving to include in your loadout. Considering that the majority of those would want it are wizards, which can compensate for most other things this slot can offer with spells, it's something you can comfortably plan for given enough time to get the gold. In fact, due to the availability of this item I'm going to be RCRing one of my characters to a Combat Insight build come the 15th.

**Braces of a Peerless Archer for +4 DEX (glove/bracer slot). For an 'unarmed' monk, this slot is practically necessary for your 'weapon'. For anyone else without UMD, or falling into a specific category which permits non-drop +4 Def AC from other shop items (Greater Piwafwi cloak of elves, Cloak of Predatory Vigor for barbarians, Ninja*** Backpack for assassins), the only item readily offering a +4 Def AC are the Counterstrike Bracers, which occupy this slot.

Gem of Glitterdepth
for +4 WIS (amulet/necklace slot). This slot is the only one that can otherwise offer natural armor. Enough said for anyone not playing a character with access to Tortoise Shell or Spiderskin.

The STR, CON, and CHA that are:
Hidden: show
Since I started playing D&D close after 3.0 release, I myself have have developed some nostalgia for the classic stat-slot items. Headband of Intellect is practically the DMG item, Gem of Glitterdepth is a rename of the Periapt of Wisdom, and likewise Bracers of a Peerless Archer fit the bill in the slot for Gloves of Dexterity. The missing original articles are the Belt of Giant Strength for STR, the Amulet of Health for CON, and the Cloak of Charisma for CHA.

As such, the potential items available:

Amulet of Health
for +4 CON (amulet/necklace slot): Actually a decent trade-off as far as I see it. If you're a shaman or druid, it uses the same slot as one for your primary spellcasting attributes. If you're not, you trade Natural armor for more health and Fortitude, both aspects of core survivability.

Cloak of Charisma
for +4 CHA (back/cloak slot): Since outside of grandfathered 'Rings of Regen' that I've heard of, the cloak slot is the only other one available for long-term health recovery, so choosing to use this slot for an attribute bonus alone may have both positive and negative consequences. Likewise, not seeing an immediate issue.

Belt of Giant Strength for +4 STR (waist/belt slot): Competing with the Belt of Growth, which offers +3 STR, +3 CON, and 3/day Enlarge Person, I'd personally like to hear an argument from the QC team on this one.

*
Hidden: show
Several reasons. Alone, I can take as many smoke- and/or bio- breaks as I want without disrupting the flow for anyone else. Sometimes I want to be in a specific mood to best be able to RP the personality of a character, which may not coincide with how I'm feeling at the moment of having time to play. Most of all, it may stem from that my first NWN1 RP experience was with me playing as a wizard on a rare-rest server. Back then, if I were forced to pause while my buffs were ticking down mid-dungeon, I could practically feel each and every grain from the proverbial hourglass carving a new trail of forsaken potential and lost possibility down my back. Extending from that, mid-dungeon RP is very uncomfortable for me. That translates to me rarely wanting to RP outside of gathering hubs far-removed from dungeons. I admit, bit of a personal problem.

***
Hidden: show
Since the subject of gear was brought up, what's with the Ninja assassin gear set? Sure, it costs an arm and half-dozen legs to get, but no other class has gotten such an assortment of +4 items specifically crafted for just them to use. It's like somebody made a j-average assassin, and at level 30 they decided that they wanted to RP a ninja instead of rebuilding. Then they went "Hey! I've got access to the server files!". Following that realization, they slapped literally everything that they may have potentially wanted to take, at the highest bonus admissible, into one gear set. Literally the only +4 Dodge boots available from merchants, +Hide/MS on half the gear, and nine feats in total. [...]

***[Continued]
Hidden: show
Image

EDIT: Some grammar, likely not all.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:15 am 
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Should STR, CON, CHA +4 stat items be added, I believe that STR and CHA will likely be a helm (or at least occupy the same slot) to avoid EDM stacking cheese. CON would likely be either amulet, bracers or helm. The goal with stat items has always been to limit how many you can equip, especially with items that have synergy. Honestly it's a bit of a bummer that INT and DEX don't occupy the same slot IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:49 am 
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Out of curiosity, why would STR and CHA need separate items due to EDM builds in order to avoid imbalance? As far as I follow, the feat requires a core unmodified STR and CHA of 21 to attain (which would requires some strict race, attribute, and likely Epic "Great" feat progression in order to achieve). Items wouldn't affect that aspect.

Compared to items available now, two separately slotted items with +4 enhancement mod would be at most be a +1 AB bonus one way, a +2 DMG/round bonus the other for solo play - if you ignore the use of potions and the benefits lost from replacing former items. This is not above what I'm guessing most EMD builds, partying with any spellcaster capable of Extend Spell and and 3rd level spellcasting, are currently achieving due to Bull's Strength and Eagle's Splendor.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:10 am 
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Because Paladin Wands were added. Meaning EDM Bards and Favored Souls and other EDM builds can use these items for permanent +4 STR/CHA (26 instead of 22, for example) in addition to a couple of Paladin wands that will stack additional +4 STR/CHA. Currently FvS and Bard can of course cast bulls STR, but that does take away from other spells. Other EDM builds such as M@A 26/BG4 are exceedingly strong already and +4 STR/CHA items would only further increase their power.

All that said, original idea was to introduce stat items all in the same slot, but that obviously did not occur. The situation should at least be mitigated in order to avoid further reducing challenge of PvE. Without challenge, there is little reason to play unless you're just looking for a chat room with graphics.

Epic shops have made slotting out any PC relatively easy, it's really just a matter of going out and adventuring, you'll earn an average of 20-50,000 gold in an hour on average without needing to run at mach speed or anything... While some runs will earn only vendor trash you sell for ~5-10 K, other runs will get you several Mudd's worthy items to sell for ~5-50K each and occasionally something worthy of auctioning on the forums. Point being, 'giving up' a couple slots for extra stats that grant undispellable bonuses is often a good trade. Especially when it means something like more uses of EDM with more damage/longer duration. Yes those bonuses can be duplicated by spells and the goal is certainly to encourage grouping up. The more spells which are rendered not required due to items granting the same or better bonus, the less reason there is to seek that spell caster party mate out.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:33 am 
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What about just making them all the same slot choices so you can only have one +4? Otherwise i think its strength charisma intelligence = head slot. Dexterity constitution = gloves. Wisdom =amulet.


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:28 pm 
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A little bit confused, I actually decided to do a little bit of digging concerning paladin spells buffing STR and CHA, between BGtSCC and the SRD.

* Draconic Might is round/level via wiki, and is enhancement bonus, so it wouldn’t stack with said items.

* Aura of Glory states it provides a +4 Charisma bonus via the server wiki, however the D&D 3.5 SRD version of the spell only provides skill and check bonuses rather than a stat increase.

* Righteous Fury provides +4 sacred bonus to Strength for a minute/level – via the wiki. The SRD equivalent provides 1d4 temp hp per caster level, +2 natural AC bonus, +2 EB to STR, +2 EB to DEX, and +2 Bonus on Fort.

* Righteous Glory, per wiki, likewise provides an untyped +4 bonus to Charisma for a minute/level. It does not exist in 3.0-5 as far as I’ve been able to track it down. Leads me to think it was a Kaedrin invention.

Truth be told, from playing in the system, I don’t remember 3.5 to have anything close to decent balance, outside of pure personal enjoyment for nostalgia factor. You can net me as one of the folks that actually think Paizo did a better job with Pathfinder (specifically with the Unchained rework of Barb, Rogue, and Monk, along with the other changes).

I actually wonder if the EMD concerns would be better handled with changes to the conflicting spells, rather than worrying about EB items? I mean, I don't really see party members capable of Divine and Arcane spells be entirely on the cusp of desperation of being excluded from a party due to being unable to provide a +4 bonus to a certain stat. As a complete aside based on personal experience, for the most part adventuring parties of PCs on the server seem to come together due to happenstance, rather than specific foreplanning.

Not to mention, there are several bonuses provided by partied casters that cannot be matched by any +4 equipment, outside of consumables. Just off the top of my head – Death Ward, Greater Heroism, Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Tortoise Shell, Spell Resistance, etc. Considering the aforementioned +4 EB items are already in the mix, I personally don’t see much of an issue with completing the circle.

As Chad said, though, may take a few tweaks on other ends.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:17 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
Because Paladin Wands were added. Meaning EDM Bards and Favored Souls and other EDM builds can use these items for permanent +4 STR/CHA (26 instead of 22, for example) in addition to a couple of Paladin wands that will stack additional +4 STR/CHA. Currently FvS and Bard can of course cast bulls STR, but that does take away from other spells. Other EDM builds such as M@A 26/BG4 are exceedingly strong already and +4 STR/CHA items would only further increase their power.

All that said, original idea was to introduce stat items all in the same slot, but that obviously did not occur. The situation should at least be mitigated in order to avoid further reducing challenge of PvE. Without challenge, there is little reason to play unless you're just looking for a chat room with graphics.

Epic shops have made slotting out any PC relatively easy, it's really just a matter of going out and adventuring, you'll earn an average of 20-50,000 gold in an hour on average without needing to run at mach speed or anything... While some runs will earn only vendor trash you sell for ~5-10 K, other runs will get you several Mudd's worthy items to sell for ~5-50K each and occasionally something worthy of auctioning on the forums. Point being, 'giving up' a couple slots for extra stats that grant undispellable bonuses is often a good trade. Especially when it means something like more uses of EDM with more damage/longer duration. Yes those bonuses can be duplicated by spells and the goal is certainly to encourage grouping up. The more spells which are rendered not required due to items granting the same or better bonus, the less reason there is to seek that spell caster party mate out.


Party casters are useless whether or not we have stat items. It's called dispel spam. Nashkel iron mines I encountered at least 10-20 cases of dispel before we even got to our first rest room. Might as well not even cast any spells.

For challenge, PvE poses enough challenge as it is. Not having to constantly watch the clock wouldn't reduce it, and may actually lend to more chance to RP. I absolutely hate buffing because it is almost guaranteed to make my party start rushing due to buff durations.

For gold, try having 8-10 strength.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:41 am 
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As a cheeky UMD-wand user for my past couple non-caster builds, the prevalence of dispels is actually not so bad.

At worst, for those that value their buffs, the old Shadowrun adage comes to mind: “Geek the mage first”. For Nashkel, that would be the Deurgar Runecasters (if I remember the creature name correctly). When I ran the place on my monk/pally/SF, I’d prioritize those as soon as I saw them (opening with a Ki-Step/IKD to shut them down before they could get a spell off). For zones that have dispellers even more prevalently, I’d simply avoid them if my build depended on low-CL buffs that come from consumables. Thankfully, the server has enough similar-CR zones for that to be an option. From my experience thus far, there seems to be at least one area within a certain level bracket that lacks an overabundance of dispellers.

I imagine the dispel spam, due to the availability of UMD and wands, is a necessity to curb cheesy builds that could abuse the bonuses which stem from that. The Dispel line of spells (Lesser, regular, and Greater) cap at a certain maximum CL that they can strip (14, 19, and 24, respectively). Correlating to that, from my experience those tend to be within the margins for the CRs of the zone. A full-CL caster could reasonably expect their spells to be untouched aside from some occasional misfortune.

That singular “occasional misfortune” tends to stick in one’s mind much more readily that the several successful checks that resisted dispels do however. I admit that it was a bit frustrating on my first character on the server, a Thaum, to see a fully-buffed summon to vanish due to a lucky dispel roll on the part of an enemy. In the overarching scheme of things, however, I was using a low-risk build (invisible, with easy escape options) to independently farm zones using buffed summons. The server balance simply had a relevant counter for that.

In an attempt to get back to the original topic, as an admitted filthy wandsucker, I see +4 EB items as a cost and convenience issue for PvE. If gold is so “easy” to gain, despite all the efforts of enemy dispels, one can just recast Bull’s/Cat’s/-anything-else-Old-McDonald-may-have-at-his-farm on themselves following an encounter if the EB effect was lost from a wand/potion. With such “easy” gold, one can just roll from one consumable onto the next, with no secondary impact on current server balance (simply regarding a dispel as an inconvenient, temporary debuff).

If gold could be still seen as having a bit of value however, a +4 EB item is instead a preemptive investment into a non-dispellable enhancement bonus that could otherwise be matched by common consumables... all at the sacrifice of whatever alternative bonuses the equipment slot could have offered.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Just to provide a point of clarification, max bonus to dispel on this server was increased from 10 to 15 while greater dispel is 20. Therefore to be immune to lesser dispel you need CL15, to be immune to dispel CL25 and to be immune to greater dispel CL30 (so dispel and greater dispel needs 5 more CL)

As to wands, a Wand of Bull's STR costs about 438 gold to use (less if you get more than 1 recharge out of it) vs. the cost of +4 stat item of 4-500K. It would take 913 uses (@ 400K for item) of that wand of Bull's STR (lasts 15 minutes per use) for a +4 STR item to become 'worth it'. I have a character I've had since 2015 that uses wands consistently and I say with absolute certainty he has not used any more than 300 charges of any one wand. Food for thought, I suppose. It's left to the individual what is worth it and what is not, obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Yup, my mistake. Only checked the Wiki for Lesser Dispel (whose description was unchanged from the +5 CL bonus from base NWN2) so I assumed the higher tiers of the spell were likewise untouched. Still, as that wasn't enough of a difference to break me as a wand-user, I don't imagine a full CL buffer's worth of benefits would have any worse an effect.

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