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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:30 am 
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end of the day, from a build perspective even if +4 STR/CON/CHA items are introduced most melee builds without ready access to Bull's STR Will be better off finishing on odd STR/CON to use Belt of Growth. Non-Casters or low CL casters are very item dependent. Thus 'killing two birds with one stone' like maximizing STR/CON is a huge boon. Barbarians would rather finish on even, but they only need +2 items with Epic Rage to reach the cap (standard rage for CON). Thus, in the end +4 STR and CON items, if in separate slots would mostly benefit lower HP Gish types. Consider that Bears Endurance can kill you if you're not careful and +4 CON for an elven Bladesinger would probably get them up over ~300 HP.

There is a lot more to consider with stat items than just 'it evens out non-casters with casters'...It doesn't, and if we did enough to truly even them out it would actually make things far too easy and difficult to balance from a PvE perspective.

My main is a Rogue type. I have played non-caster fighter melee types with great success in PvE as well including a F12/WoD10/BG4/TK4 which even as a Halberd user was able to solo everything within reasonable CR range. Even UMD use is not strictly required if you're patient and do some research in game. Master Alchemist players can provide elixirs of up to level 7 spells! Thus without UMD you can still get Shadow Shield, Deathward, Deez's Shadow Barrier, Greater Heroism (though cheaper to buy from Thayan Enclave), etc... In addition to the readily available potions of up to level 3. In addition, you can get these up to caster level 30 (though it is more expensive) so if you really need a long term ward that won't get dispelled, you can get it.

So many things have made the server far easier for players (like me) that never had any epic gear/DM reward gear/grandfathered gear, etc. New PRC's, more spells that can be placed on wands, Master Alchemist Elixirs, Epic Shops, Traveling Merchant. Use/day and charge items that don't require UMD, Evasion change (which in conjunction with availability of mithril chainmail has significantly reduced the cost to obtain Mithril Full Plate while still keeping mithril chainmail affordabble) Expose Weakness as a mode (which while no longer as strong, is easier to get to fire since you can set it and forget it), new feats like Blinding Strike, Northlander Hewing and One Hander and so many more.

Simply put there is a LOT of information out there, frankly it's too much to take in. However, if you narrow your focus to what you are trying to accomplish it is much easier to search and navigate the wiki then it ever was in the past and asking build/feat advice in the character building forums or on Discord almost always results in lots of positive feedback/advice on what can make a given build type more survivable, more fun or better suited to what you are trying to accomplish either in RP or mechanically.

1. D&D 3.5 is what NWN2 rules are based on, cross-classing is a huge part of the design and has been since 1st edition (humans got to dual class, other races multi-class).

2. There aren't really any high AC enemies on the server. The reason you want ~45 AB for a non-HiPS melee is because highest AC enemies have around ~35 AC, meaning on a roll of 2 or higher your 1st, 2nd and 3rd attacks are guaranteed to hit and your 4th and 5th attacks are more than likely going to hit. Mobs on this server are mostly made with loads (too many) hit points and DR. Honestly might be nice to see some ~45 AC mobs with lower HP and no/low DR as blasters would have a place to adventure and, while melee PC's might hit less, that would be ok because not as much damage would be needed to defeat each mob.

3. Anointed Knight is the very best melee PRC out there. Gives you Tumble, Spellcraft, high Will saves, Tower Shields (for Paladins and other non-fighter bases), more skill points and for taking Iron Will (which is nice for improving saves anyway) you get Blind Fighting, Toughness (opens up Steadfast!), and Alertness (Dash for WoD) on top of DR 3/- (great for grabbing epic DR for non-Barbarians) and 2 EPIC bonus feats which are not as limited as Divine Champion or Fighter Bonus Feats (can be used for Great Strength and other feats Fighter/DC feats can't be used for. DC is still a fine pick, especially if going for Epic DR as a Barbarian, still a solid improvement to saving throws and such. However, Anointed Knight and WoD give a small damage boost (~2.5 damage per hit is better than Weapon Specialization) as well as all the things mentioned above. Spellcraft being a huge boon for fighter types, obviously.

Mithiril Chainmail is 1 less AC than Mithril Fullplate and Fighters get a feat that gives them some resistance to elemental damage in medium/heavy armor. So you decide if you want the 1 extra AC with some resistance or if you want 1 less AC and evasion. In PnP evasion doesn't even work in anything heavier than light armor so this 'fix' is accurate to PnP, while still giving something to heavy/medium armor users to make the decision a bit less one sided. Not to mention everyone dipping Rogue/Monk is a bit weak anyway. Almost no one RP's that aspect of the character so the option to simply not go that route and still have it be a solid choice is kind of nice.

Finally, it is a bit rude to throw out an opinion which doesn't show a full understanding of the changes to the server and then simply state "Not arguing/not reading anyone else's thoughts/opinions". Folks are trying to help make clear why non-casters are perfectly viable and even quite strong in many cases on the server, but if you do not wish to read than I suppose nothing that's typed will reach you and help you understand what you can do that makes your PC stronger, if that is your desire. Knowledge is never a bad thing and maybe you'll learn something you did not know which will give you a unique idea for a mechanically viable and fun to play build and character concept to RP.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:44 am 
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Oh god. This what I tried to avoid.

Sun Wukong wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:
As it stands:
- Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness have less feats that encourage you to go to 10 and very low Spell Resistance.

Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness can be taken for 4 levels to get elemental damage to finish trolls. This is a common sight with builds. They can be taken up to 6 levels for additional feat, or more for the potential extra epic feats. I do not think they get spell resistance on this server. Wouldn't mind if they got the 20 spell resistance they get in PnP. It would be handy when running through low level areas with caster mobs that spam magic missile.


So ignore +5 to saves to get 4 level for killing trolls for a few rounds when bombs and flask are buyable as well as drop quite often or the fact you can find, make m, or buy fire wands....Brilliant!!!

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Quote:
Erm... Tower Shield combined Improved Combat Expertise brings their AC to around 50 without that big of a feat investment. The AC could be higher with feats.

10 (Base)
+ 4 (Natural Armor Amulet)
+ 4 (Armor Enchantment Bracers)
+ 4 (Deflection Enchantment Item)
+ 4 (Dodge Enchantment Boots)
+ 4 (Shield Enchantment Shield)
+ 1 (Tumble)
+ 8 (Regular Full Plate)
+ 1 (Maximum Dexterity Bonus of REgular Full Plate)
+ 4 (Tower Shield)
+ 6 (Combat Expertise)
= 50

You can get Mithral Full Plate or spend feats for +2 AC. Luck of Heroes is another +1 AC. Armor Skin yet another +1 AC. There is fighter 18 feat for +1 AC as well. There are shield feats for +1 AC.

So yes, you can build for something defensive if you want to.

But generally speaking Epic Weapon Specialization, strength modifier of 10, and Melee Weapon Mastery is something like +18 damage to whatever your weapon does.

If you need to tank, you can.


Quote, "Also as a fighter type, you have to pray the DMs/staff didn't deviant too much from the source material from the player handbook. (Which happens all to often) A fighter type that doesn't cross class will get 50 AC and 52 if you get 30 tumble. (Not counting combat expertise feats for 53 to 56 AC and 55 to 58 respectively) However, most will have below this because you also need to dedicate feats to CCs, damage, and high AB. Most DMs do not take this inconsideration or don't care, which is why a lot of Fighter types fall to the waste side and servers become spellcaster dominate."

I am not being a jerk, but I am not argue about classes because it will go into theorycraft or not make a point at all.


Last edited by ARHicks00 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:08 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
[...]end of the day, from a build perspective even if +4 STR/CON/CHA items are introduced most melee builds without ready access to Bull's STR Will be better off finishing on odd STR/CON to use Belt of Growth. Non-Casters or low CL casters are very item dependent. Thus 'killing two birds with one stone' like maximizing STR/CON is a huge boon. Barbarians would rather finish on even, but they only need +2 items with Epic Rage to reach the cap (standard rage for CON). Thus, in the end +4 STR and CON items, if in separate slots would mostly benefit lower HP Gish types. Consider that Bears Endurance can kill you if you're not careful and +4 CON for an elven Bladesinger would probably get them up over ~300 HP.[...]

Considering not wanting to split the potential of +4 STR and CON to two different slots for the above reason, not wanting to split +4 STR and CHA due to EDM, and as the primary casting attribute for Wiz gishes is INT (which already exists in head slot), what would be your thoughts on adding +4 STR/CON/CHA as only head-slot items? It would put Sorc gishes in the same camp as their wizard counterparts, and would keep +4 ability slot as specific as possible (with only +4 DEX gloves and +4 WIS amulet being excluded from the slot, due to them already being available in the game).

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:24 am 
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Svabodnik wrote:
Considering not wanting to split the potential of +4 STR and CON to two different slots for the above reason, not wanting to split +4 STR and CHA due to EDM, and as the primary casting attribute for Wiz gishes is INT (which already exists in head slot), what would be your thoughts on adding +4 STR/CON/CHA as only head-slot items? It would put Sorc gishes in the same camp as their wizard counterparts, and would keep +4 ability slot as specific as possible (with only +4 DEX gloves and +4 WIS amulet being excluded from the slot, due to them already being available in the game).


Something like this has already been stated as a goal, but no one has submitted a shop with any further +4 stat items as a requested part of that store. I think there is an approved shop with a +4 CHA item (if I recall it was head slot), but no one has had the time to build the shop keeper and put it in game.

There is a second shop that was requested, and recently approved, but it does not include any +4 stat items.

Should additional guilds put requests in and wish one of their (2 or 3?) epic items be a +4 stat item for STR or CON it will be reviewed and considered, but shops take a long time to get in because they do require lore to be written by the submitting guild/group and approved by DMs, mechanical review/approval by QC and then someone with the ability to do so must create the items and the shop. If I recall correctly it took the Red Wizards nearly a year to get their shop in game from initial submission to implementation...

So in case I wasn't clear before (and speaking for myself here as always, in no way should this be considered an official stance of the staff and management, yada yada yada) I am perfectly fine putting in all +4 stat gear. You're giving up an inventory slot for one stat, fine with me! I personally didn't agree with putting any +4 stat items in, but once that decision was made I do agree with having all stats accounted for. I just think there should be SOME cool factor for finding a UNIQUE RIG item, which gets taken away if you can replicate through store bought. Having the stat items relegated to head (or amulet/bracers since that ship has sailed) allows for the possibility (however small) of finding a RING, maybe even with +4 to a stat and a couple other minor bonuses and being like "awesome, best day in game ever!!!" There is little left of the RIG (which Valefort is keen to remind us) which will excite you anymore other than maybe something saves you a few 100K since you don't have to purchase it if you find it! or maybe makes you a few 100K so you can buy the pretty trinket your PC wants. Leaving a few things that the RIG can do which shops can't keeps things somewhat interesting when you're out adventuring... even if it only happens once a year, that's better than nothing. Plus with some changes Endelyon has made and continue to tweak I feel like interesting gear is a bit more common, which is a nice bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:42 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
[...]Something like this has already been stated as a goal, but no one has submitted a shop with any further +4 stat items as a requested part of that store. I think there is an approved shop with a +4 CHA item (if I recall it was head slot), but no one has had the time to build the shop keeper and put it in game.

There is a second shop that was requested, and recently approved, but it does not include any +4 stat items.

Should additional guilds put requests in and wish one of their (2 or 3?) epic items be a +4 stat item for STR or CON it will be reviewed and considered, but shops take a long time to get in because they do require lore to be written by the submitting guild/group and approved by DMs, mechanical review/approval by QC and then someone with the ability to do so must create the items and the shop. If I recall correctly it took the Red Wizards nearly a year to get their shop in game from initial submission to implementation[...]

I see; didn't really know it was such an extended process to get items added to the game. Is there an option for existing stocks in stores to be modified, once the initial approval process has gone through, or is it more of a one-and-done deal? Likewise, I remember that there were some thoughts about 'splitting up' the epic shops between different vendors (think it was in regard the Maecius Plays thread). Any chance new items could be introduced during that process?

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:53 am 
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Svabodnik wrote:
Is there an option for existing stocks in stores to be modified, once the initial approval process has gone through, or is it more of a one-and-done deal?


I am sure DMs and QC would consider additions to stores, but a faction shop has rules around number of epic items available.

Svabodnik wrote:
Likewise, I remember that there were some thoughts about 'splitting up' the epic shops between different vendors (think it was in regard the Maecius Plays thread).


Certainly a possibility, but it's all about prioritization. There has been a LOT of work going on Dev side, not all of which QC (thus me) is privy to. There is always a lot of cool stuff being worked on, and only limited time to complete. As always, any players with a skill set (especially toolset!) that could be of assistance is welcome to apply to the area builder's, developers, media team, QC, etc. While some applications will not be accepted for various reasons, anyone who wants to help out would be considered.

Svabodnik wrote:
Any chance new items could be introduced during that process?


Of course! Again, it is dependent upon what get's prioritized and what stuff is in the pipeline that those with the requisite skills are willing/able to devote their time to. I personally have tried stuff in the toolset and find even what most consider simple things to be complicated and difficult to understand if what I am doing is 'right' or if it is going to catastrophically break my game. Odd, but I am relatively skilled at math, spreadsheets, etc. but when it comes to scripting, development, etc. I can usually understand others pseudo-code, but trying to write anything myself causes smoke to leak from my ears. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Gotcha, thanks for answering my questions. When chambordini said,
chambordini wrote:
I think the idea might've been to add them all at some point, but I don't think we've got any concrete plans for that atm. [...] But that's not to say it can't be discussed. Any thoughts?

I didn't quite know how far discussion on the topic may sway it, one way or another. Though, rather than that seems there has been more interest in off-topic balance issues. Ah well.

As for me, looking forward to the possibility of having them added, and in clear personal bias would prefer that they wouldn't fall into glove, boot, or amulet slots.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 pm 
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+4 Strength items, random loot.
+4 Constituon items, usually boots from random loot.
+4 Charisma items, usually rings from random loot.

ARHicks00 wrote:
Quote, "Also as a fighter type, you have to pray the DMs/staff didn't deviant too much from the source material from the player handbook. (Which happens all to often) A fighter type that doesn't cross class will get 50 AC and 52 if you get 30 tumble. (Not counting combat expertise feats for 53 to 56 AC and 55 to 58 respectively) However, most will have below this because you also need to dedicate feats to CCs, damage, and high AB. Most DMs do not take this inconsideration or don't care, which is why a lot of Fighter types fall to the waste side and servers become spellcaster dominate."

I am not being a jerk, but I am not argue about classes because it will go into theorycraft or not make a point at all.

First of all, you are actually being a jerk here. Why else use this colour that is basically unreadable against this background colour. If you use a lighter colour like this one, it is actually readable. The difference is like a night and day.

The numbers I provided earlier, buildwise, they just require the following things: 14 in Intelligence, 2 feats spent, 10-20 skill points, and enough gold earned to purchase the +4 equipment. If you do all that, you can sit on 50 that AC on demand with a 'FIGHTER 30' build, and you could actually get much higher AC than that.

There are 'fighter type builds' that can get much higher AC. Fighter 20/Dwarven Defender for example could get AC of 59 without that much of an effort.

This is not theorycrafting, it is just the way the server is.

Oh, and I would be curious to hear why your issue here went from pure fighters to 'fighter types' and all that.

And anyhow, when it comes to DM events, all takes is a DM spamming high caster level Mords to ruin the day of all casters in the event. Not to mention that generally speaking those low hitpoint arcanists usually end up dropping like flies. While tanky 'fighter types' keep on fighting and fighting and fighting. The more fighter types there are, the more likely it is that a clear majority of those fighter types will finish the encounter without even a loss of a single hitpoint. The DM needs to have some big boss monster spam Whirlwind Attack or some other pulse/AoE attack to harm that group of fighter types.

And anyhow, a DM can crush any player if they want to do so or even through honest mistake. I have seen DMs wipe out entire parties by making things too hard by honest mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
First of all, you are actually being a jerk here. Why else use this colour that is basically unreadable against this background colour. If you use a lighter colour like this one, it is actually readable. The difference is like a night and day.


My bad. I was writing that post on my phone. I changed it too yellow.

Quote:
This is not theorycrafting, it is just the way the server is.


I wasn't talking any other type of build except a figthter type build. Yes, I'm aware of dwarven defender and other such builds. (Fig/DD/WM/Rog, MaA/Paladin, or Palemaster gish build that get 53 or greater easy) I'm just sticking to basics because not everyone is a dwarven defender and as my post said not everyone who is a fighter type will build for total dedicate defense. Again, we can name every build in NWN2db, it would just go into theorycraft and it isn't about who has the biggest, but the fact the average players are not going to high ACs.

Quote:
Oh, and I would be curious to hear why your issue here went from pure fighters to 'fighter types' and all that.


Fighter type as in Pure Core classes or PrCs. I'm still on topic and I'm trying to shy away from special builds because not everyone builds the same.

Quote:
And anyhow, when it comes to DM events, all takes is a DM spamming high caster level Mords to ruin the day of all casters in the event. Not to mention that generally speaking those low hitpoint arcanists usually end up dropping like flies. While tanky 'fighter types' keep on fighting and fighting and fighting. The more fighter types there are, the more likely it is that a clear majority of those fighter types will finish the encounter without even a loss of a single hitpoint. The DM needs to have some big boss monster spam Whirlwind Attack or some other pulse/AoE attack to harm that group of fighter types.


This is yet another example of theorycraft. You can drop a fighter type like flies if they are don't have high saves. One will saving spell and he's toast. Hell, a fighter with 20 Fort can still die to a Fort saving spells that's DC is in it's 40s. Or you can just make a fighter eat several Reflex saving spells. How the fighter type counters is if he has UMD, but again that's theory craft too. Any situation you can subject those caster's in. You can also subject the fighter types too.

Quote:
And anyhow, a DM can crush any player if they want to do so or even through honest mistake. I have seen DMs wipe out entire parties by making things too hard by honest mistake.


What does DM having to wipe parties have to do +4 items? This kind of goes back to my point that these discussion delve into pointless rambling.


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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:04 pm 
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D&D ad will as this server is not balanced for solo. It is unreasonable to expect to solo equivalent or higher CR areas. It can be done with power building and knowledge of mechanics, but that isn't what content is balanced around. With a group no one needs 50 AC for the majority of content even in epics.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:32 am 
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chad878262 wrote:
D&D ad will as this server is not balanced for solo. It is unreasonable to expect to solo equivalent or higher CR areas. It can be done with power building and knowledge of mechanics, but that isn't what content is balanced around. With a group no one needs 50 AC for the majority of content even in epics.


I rather not have to make crazy high AC build just to co exist at epic levels. If so then the content isn't worth plsying anyway. DnD is suppose to be fun, not an MMORPG. That is why I am playing a pure Fighter instead of special build this go around.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:01 am 
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You do not have to be able to solo 100% of the server. A single character does not have to be able to do it all. There will be areas that allow all characters to reach level 30, and in the odd case there is not, do the weekly quests.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
You do not have to be able to solo 100% of the server. A single character does not have to be able to do it all. There will be areas that allow all characters to reach level 30, and in the odd case there is not, do the weekly quests.


I do not want to solo the cotent rather you shouldn't have to specialist to exist in participate in epic level cotent. Soloing is the result of players going their own way or some players being on at different times. It is also the result of social cliques formed within the server instead of players seeking oit lowly leveled players.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:41 am 
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ARHicks00 wrote:
I do not want to solo the cotent rather you shouldn't have to specialist to exist in participate in epic level cotent. Soloing is the result of players going their own way or some players being on at different times. It is also the result of social cliques formed within the server instead of players seeking oit lowly leveled players.

First of all, what do you even mean by the word specialist? Basically, in D&D, when you pick a class you are picking a specialist in a segment of a the interesting field of the adventuring business. Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. It is entirely up to you to decide whether you want to create a character of competence or not. If you choose 'incompetence' due to role-play flavor and self imposed limitations, it is up to you to bear the consequences of that decision.

You are free to create a Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 with as evenly spread ability scores as possible, but clearly it is a build that is not going to compete against the strengths of a more specialized Fighter 30, Cleric 30, Wizard 30, or Druid 30. If the 'role-playing flavor' of said build is not enough to make you endure the flaws it has, then you should consider another build if not an entirely different characters.

Then I would like to hear what you mean by being able to 'exist or participate' in epic level content? Even the guy with the Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 build is able to face THE WHITE DRAGON in a party. His contribution might not be much beyond provided an extra meat shield and buffs to bait dispels, but he is still contributing and will be revived if fugued.

As for soloing, oh, I do have quite the experience with that on this server. You should not look at the loot gained, the experience points per kill, or even how challenging an area is, the only thing you should consider is how much experience points you can get per hour after potential trip to fugue. If you can kill 5 mobs worthy of 5 experience points each in the time it takes you to kill an 'epic mob' worthy of 18 experience points, you are better off killing those 5 exp mobs. 25 against 18 is a simple decision.

Finally, have a look at the in game scrying tool. I do see parties form all the time. But here is the thing, you cannot always expect the world to come to you. Sometimes you just got to send a tell first. Not to mention that people are quite free to play whichever character they please.

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 Post subject: Re: missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
First of all, what do you even mean by the word specialist? Basically, in D&D, when you pick a class you are picking a specialist in a segment of a the interesting field of the adventuring business.


Actually, no. Bard do not specialize at anything unless you build them that way.

Sun Wukong wrote:
Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.


Fighters for the most part are melee specialist and while they can be made archers, they aren't specialist at it nor do they get benefits like Arcane archer. Rogues specialist a utility skill characters since they posses a lot of skills and advantages that many classes do not. However, wasn't talking about the classes in that matter, but this server you have to be heavy defense to Epic levels.

Sun Wukong wrote:
You are free to create a Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 with as evenly spread ability scores as possible, but clearly it is a build that is not going to compete against the strengths of a more specialized Fighter 30, Cleric 30, Wizard 30, or Druid 30. If the 'role-playing flavor' of said build is not enough to make you endure the flaws it has, then you should consider another build if not an entirely different characters.


Gish can specialize at melee either as can Clerics, but I wasn't referring one classes taking the place of another or cross class. Rather the epic level content requires heavy AC. Whether a player a pure fighter or cross-class.

Sun Wukong wrote:
Then I would like to hear what you mean by being able to 'exist or participate' in epic level content? Even the guy with the Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 7/Druid 7 build is able to face THE WHITE DRAGON in a party. His contribution might not be much beyond provided an extra meat shield and buffs to bait dispels, but he is still contributing and will be revived if fugued.


He would just be a person contributing to the RP experience I've been saying in countless post. The rest of what you said has nothing to do with what we were talking about.


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