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 Post subject: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Imagine you are designing realistic shooter with no on-screen crosshair, just hip fire and sight-assisted aiming. The guns' barrels are simulated, making particularly long weapons useless for situations requiring peeking around doors and corners, as your gun will clip into the wall and at best mess up your shot, at worst, you'll be unable to bring it on target on time (if at all).

You choose to make a few basic classes, defined by their weapons.
  • A rifleman - jack of all ranges, master of none. A rifleman is never really stumped in any situation, but a specialist will take them down.
  • A support using some sort of machinegun - amazing defensive class uncaring for distance, but is miles slower at achieving the same outcome than the rifleman (assuming they don't take unnecessary risks that may be high reward, but also higher risk than a rifleman).
  • A breacher - using fully automatic shotguns/SMGs with, for sake of game balance, unrealistically high bullet spread. They excel at entering a room and taking down everyone within without dying. However, should the distances be too high, you become useless.
  • A sniper - using a high caliber rifle that instantly kills anyone it hits, a high power scope balanced very long barrel, a low-capacity internal magazine that needs to be hand-fed due to the scope, and bolt-action cycling. The sniper rifle excels at long range engagement, but its balancing aspects MAY allow it to breach a room and kill a single guy, but they will either run out of bullets or get killed between cycling the bolt.

You make your game and in its original iteration, it is about long campaigns of a squad of mercenaries who each work to complement one another. Despite only the rifleman being able to do everything, the entire squad benefits from anything one of their members do. The sniper stays back methodicaly covering their teammates' advance and looking for enemy snipers to take down. Waiting. Waiting for the moment for the breacher to either lure out their high value target or for the support to use his various tools after the rifleman and breacher mitigated the risk to remove obstructions from the sniper's vision. Almost each campaign ends with the sniper taking aim and deleting the big bad with high-tech sci-fi armour that would let them shrug off a full magazine from your rifleman. The breacher might be able to kill them quickly enough, but they'd probably suffer injuries trying to close the distance due to their gun being balanced around (unrealistically) having low range.

Everyone has fun, everyone player has a job to do and they do that job well. The rifleman is a bit of a weak choice, but a mandatory one. Should the sniper be incompetent or die, the rifleman can take his job with less deadliness by using field modifications on his trusty gun. Should the squad need support fire, the rifleman provides, if less effectively. The rifleman can also breach, but he needs to invest in better body armour or perhaps consumables that temporarily blind the room - consumables that are free for the breacher to buy, but not for him. (they can't trade gear because class restricted for balance reasons).

Over the years, your game becomes more and more popular and people decide to port it over to other media. Nothing bad happens, the media remain true to the intended structure of the game and the well separated classes work well.

Over time, the intended structure muddles.

Due to various reasons, rather than long campaigns with clear end goals, enemies start respawning. No problem, the sniper just has to stick close as he can no longer safely take his shot perched from his spot.

Someone decided that Pride and Accomplishment would be best achieved if every player had separate progression from their team. We're not talking small boosts here and there to reward excellence, but every basic action rewarding everyone differently. Some players realise they are able to progress faster solo by grinding the same enemies over and over again. By virtue of being a jack of all trades, the rifleman starts to dominate the meta.

The support stays close, by virtue of his defensive play tilting the gameplay in his favour whatever happens. The Breacher suffers from the current design, forced to stay in specific areas due to their low range and inability to take down the bosses. The sniper? Well, we can speak of 2 kinds of snipers.

The ones that hunt high value targets and those who don't.

Those who don't are fighting an uphill battle. We call them designated marksmen due to their focus on low value targets using marskamnship. Their guns are not made to hunt like riflemen do. They cannot maintain that rate of room clears without running out of ammo and dying, or even just a single room because of their sniper rifles being way too unwieldy (remember, no crosshairs, only sights and the gun is bolt action with low capacity). To keep up, these people start using side arms rather than their intended weapons, ending up not playing the game as their class should be used but as a weird mutation of it.

At least the map design still has opportunities for sniping - there are areas where our common mob hunting snipers can excel by virtue of having a scope, even if their kill rate (despite much, much, much higher single target damage) is lower than the rifleman's (by virtue of more ammo cap and faster reload - in fact, with consumables, they have effectively infinite ammo).

Those who hunt high value targets have surprisingly decent progression. Let's call them assassins. It's not as good as our jack of all trades rifleman who mixes the kits of everyone, but it's better than the breacher. It takes fairly unorthodox play to execute - the sniper needs to sneak through droves of enemies, only killing a few here and there with a suppressed sub-sonic side arm to open new pathways to progress. They might even invest in a breacher's tools to better progress through rooms, not making a sound or even sign they are there. They then work to expose their high value target, essentially debuffing them of their cover and concealment so that when they hide at a vantage point, they only need a single shot to take the thing down. Any more shots than a single is impossible to execute - a failure will result in death after all, by virtue of being alone.. Done with their job, they use their sniper specific tools used to get a better vantage to extract without having to deal with the mobs behind them.

Someone rightly decides they shouldn't be able to extract from the boss room, since it means they can extract into it with no risk sneaking through the enemy lines.

After numerous complaints by the breacher players, the entire map was restructured to eliminate all these long distance vantage points that snipers previously used, be it long or short distance. There are still a few of them left, usually near the boss rooms, but over all the non-assassin style sniper gameplay is now extinct. Breachers rejoice on the other hand from becoming dominant at killing enemies indefinitely, clearing rooms with little risk to themselves. With a few consumables, they can continue doing this even better than a rifleman would.

Riflemen remain cream of the crop still, if less effective than breachers due to needing more consumables without their range advantage. No problem, they can also keep extracting to get a new set of body armour and refill their magazines.

A breacher sees a assassin-style sniper get through a map without clearing rooms and taking down the boss in 1 shot. Because boss fights are difficult for them due to lacking the range to properly counter the survivability of the thing, they find this unfair and petition the sniper rifle to be nerfed so it can no longer be used to assassinate targets.

Assassinating targets is literally the only thing the sniper rifle can do.

The developers oblige, and the sniper rifle becomes a less wieldy rifleman's assault rifle. Snipers survive, more or less. More crafty players are still able to exploit the uniqueness of encounters to win them, or simply forsake the entire sniper gameplay for sitting back and hiring others to do their job while being near enough to get rewards. Or some other attempts.

Whatever they do, the only thing snipers were good at AND were made to do no longer exists.

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Last edited by Hoihe on Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Meet your cast:
  • Riflemen - muscle gishes.
  • Breachers: Either rogues or crit-build auto attackers like WM/FB.
  • Support: Dwarven Defender and armoured/intelligence gishes.
  • Sniper rifle:
    • Assassin style - Save or die wizards,
    • Designated Marksman style: Blaster wizards

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"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Hoihe wrote:
Meet your cast:
  • Riflemen - muscle gishes.
  • Breachers: Either rogues or crit-build auto attackers like WM/FB.
  • Support: Dwarven Defender and armoured/intelligence gishes.
  • Sniper rifle:
    • Assassin style - Save or die wizards,
    • Designated Marksman style: Blaster wizards

How about you just write down your actual complaint?

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- Elminster, probably.


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Hoihe wrote:
Meet your cast:
  • Riflemen - muscle gishes.
  • Breachers: Either rogues or crit-build auto attackers like WM/FB.
  • Support: Dwarven Defender and armoured/intelligence gishes.
  • Sniper rifle:
    • Assassin style - Save or die wizards,
    • Designated Marksman style: Blaster wizards

How about you just write down your actual complaint?


The absurdity of the Assassin-sniper situation is more in your face if you discuss it in an analogy.


Think about it - a shooter where sniper rifles can't be used to snipe.

It'd be a problem indeed if they instakilled everything if the scope had no sway and the entire map was in the open field because everything would die with no chance of countering the sniper except for another.

But if it's a CQC style shooter, said sniper is basically useless unless they are very, very familiar with the map and know how to surprise enemies. Even then, they'll just get overwhelmed.

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"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:27 pm 
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So...wait, you're saying DC Wizards suck? As well as sneak attack builds and WM/FB style? I just want to make sure I'm clear on that point because...wow.

My sneak attack build handles content just fine... Those I know of that play some kind of sneak attack build have no complaints right now either.

Wizards are still top dogs in PvE and PvP. Made way better with the recent changes (thanks Nachti) Conjuration and Transmutation are far better choices of focus than they were a year ago (and Transmutation has always been an OK choice for DC wizards). Necromancers who were always top DC Wizards now have further improved summons of their own. Illusion is as good as ever.

Sorry, I am not seeing the analogy. The difficulty level of the server is nowhere near as high as it was in 2015. We have new spells, new feats, epic shops, better drop rates and the bosses haven't been upped at all. The only increased difficulty is dedudes change to add occasional boss spawns and scaled CRs. Most feedback I've seen seem to indicate these are good changes.

Final question/statement... Is a game fun/worth playing solely for social aspects? Without challenge, what is D&D left with? I personally do not wish to play in a virtual chat room where enemies fall over when you RP killing them.

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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:35 pm 
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chad878262 wrote:
So...wait, you're saying DC Wizards suck? As well as sneak attack builds and WM/FB style? I just want to make sure I'm clear on that point because...wow.

My sneak attack build handles content just fine... Those I know of that play some kind of sneak attack build have no complaints right now either.

Wizards are still top dogs in PvE and PvP. Made way better with the recent changes (thanks Nachti) Conjuration and Transmutation are far better choices of focus than they were a year ago (and Transmutation has always been an OK choice for DC wizards). Necromancers who were always top DC Wizards now have further improved summons of their own. Illusion is as good as ever.

Sorry, I am not seeing the analogy. The difficulty level of the server is nowhere near as high as it was in 2015. We have new spells, new feats, epic shops, better drop rates and the bosses haven't been upped at all. The only increased difficulty is dedudes change to add occasional boss spawns and scaled CRs. Most feedback I've seen seem to indicate these are good changes.

Final question/statement... Is a game fun/worth playing solely for social aspects? Without challenge, what is D&D left with? I personally do not wish to play in a virtual chat room where enemies fall over when you RP killing them.



The very idea of a debuffer wizard does not exist.

Punctum.

Debuffer wizards. Do. Not. Exist.

Also notice how I categorized rogues and WM/FBs as "Breachers."

Breachers are dominant. Followed by Rifelmen (Meleers/autoattackers with buffs). Only followed by Supports because they can't die and just do whatever the hell they want regardless of circumnstance.

(well, supports can die due to a sniper first debuffing their invulnerability and then getting whacked.)

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"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:46 pm 
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A friend's comments...


On the original implementation where Riflemen can replace snipers if they are very good, and if they were less than good deaths would occur.

Quote:
“Unless they were very good” is the worst argument for balance
Because they WILL be
You have to operate from the assumption of high skill on the player’s part when balancing, because your players WILL reach that point
And it WILL warp your long term player’s perception
If a high skill rifleman can do what the sniper does plus other (#2), then the sniper is vestigial and inherently useless
High skill snipers will migrate to riflemen inevitably because that class lets them do more, with no real downside


And we observe the above. Muscle wizards and even gandalfs are better choice than pure wizard. Armoured Wizards only work because supports don't care, they just walk through hellfire and shrug at the tickling while tickling back.




As for whether the game is fun?

It is fun to play if one's playstyle, which is inherently sub-optimal but good at 1 specific thing gets deleted because they are able to do something with little risk (Despite being unable to do anything else but that 1 thing).

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"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Hoihe wrote:
Punctum.

Debuffer wizards. Do. Not. Exist.

Quote:
Debuff
A term used in gaming, most likely stemming from MMORPG lingo, where shortening terms becomes essential for text communication. A debuff can be used in two similar respects. It replaces the drawn-out phrase "negative status ailment", where an attack or spell causes some ill effect on it's target, i.e. poisoning, silence, bleed. Debuff can also be used referring to an attack or spell that removes positive status effects. Many traditional RPGs have adopted this term as well.

So... On this server we have no:
Enervation, Energy Drain, Avasculate, Cloudkill, Cloud of Bewilderment, Mind Fog, Acid Fod, etc...

Anyhow, could you ditch your use of shooter based terminology. It does not make your argument sound any better. Quite the opposite in fact.

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- Elminster, probably.


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Hoihe wrote:
Punctum.

Debuffer wizards. Do. Not. Exist.

Quote:
Debuff
A term used in gaming, most likely stemming from MMORPG lingo, where shortening terms becomes essential for text communication. A debuff can be used in two similar respects. It replaces the drawn-out phrase "negative status ailment", where an attack or spell causes some ill effect on it's target, i.e. poisoning, silence, bleed. Debuff can also be used referring to an attack or spell that removes positive status effects. Many traditional RPGs have adopted this term as well.

So... On this server we have no:
Enervation, Energy Drain, Avasculate, Cloudkill, Cloud of Bewilderment, Mind Fog, Acid Fod, etc...



Acid fog is blasting.

Enervation doesn't work on bosses. Energy drain doesn't work on bosses. Avasculate I am not certain if it works on all bosses. For debuffing in context of BGTSCC, only bosses matter.

Try debuffing every single mob you encounter. As a wizard, you'll either run out of spells or not even get to cast it because your party's archer will delete trash mobs (as is their job - I am not saying take it away from them).

Try debuffing every single mob as a swashbuckler. Ditto - whatever you do is useless because trash mobs are already dead and most bosses are immune.

The only debuff that sort of exists in Expose Weakness and Feint. Maybe (mass) Curse of Impending Blades as I am yet to find a boss immune to that. (Although knowing our concept of balance, just for my pleasure bosses will receive spell immunity to it because they become "too easy" if people can hit them without maxed strength/dex).

Cloudkill/acid fog and the like are Damage Over Time and not debuffs.

_________________
"The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content with a single anchorage. The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting place."
"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
Hoihe wrote:
Punctum.

Debuffer wizards. Do. Not. Exist.

Quote:
Debuff
A term used in gaming, most likely stemming from MMORPG lingo, where shortening terms becomes essential for text communication. A debuff can be used in two similar respects. It replaces the drawn-out phrase "negative status ailment", where an attack or spell causes some ill effect on it's target, i.e. poisoning, silence, bleed. Debuff can also be used referring to an attack or spell that removes positive status effects. Many traditional RPGs have adopted this term as well.

So... On this server we have no:
Enervation, Energy Drain, Avasculate, Cloudkill, Cloud of Bewilderment, Mind Fog, Acid Fod, etc...

Anyhow, could you ditch your use of shooter based terminology. It does not make your argument sound any better. Quite the opposite in fact.


Yummy spells that work wonders when used correctly. Avasculate is quite useful in dropping the Frost Giant king. So is Energy Drain..... Cloudkill and cloud of bewilderment are awesome. Cloudkill with a grease spell is even better.....Is all about knowledge not mechanics. The mechanics are fine. The player must play correctly to win.....

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"We should take the army head on!"

"... it sounds like a terrible idea, but look at that smile."
"And he just sounds so confident ... he is a favored soul."
"Even if we don't survive, he will, and isn't that what matters?" -Red Lancer


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Calodan wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
Hoihe wrote:
Punctum.

Debuffer wizards. Do. Not. Exist.

Quote:
Debuff
A term used in gaming, most likely stemming from MMORPG lingo, where shortening terms becomes essential for text communication. A debuff can be used in two similar respects. It replaces the drawn-out phrase "negative status ailment", where an attack or spell causes some ill effect on it's target, i.e. poisoning, silence, bleed. Debuff can also be used referring to an attack or spell that removes positive status effects. Many traditional RPGs have adopted this term as well.

So... On this server we have no:
Enervation, Energy Drain, Avasculate, Cloudkill, Cloud of Bewilderment, Mind Fog, Acid Fod, etc...

Anyhow, could you ditch your use of shooter based terminology. It does not make your argument sound any better. Quite the opposite in fact.


Yummy spells that work wonders when used correctly. Avasculate is quite useful in dropping the Frost Giant king. So is Energy Drain..... Cloudkill and cloud of bewilderment are awesome. Cloudkill with a grease spell is even better.....Is all about knowledge not mechanics. The mechanics are fine. The player must play correctly to win.....



Tell me how a swashbuckler is supposed to do anything about the frost giant king.


I know! Multiclass with rogue and land a lot of feinted hits to drain str/constitution!

Wait.

That was removed because people were able to drain constitution and finger of death him. This upset those without magic.

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"The wind and the waves are always on the side of the ablest navigator."


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Hoihe wrote:

Tell me how a swashbuckler is supposed to do anything about the frost giant king.


I know! Multiclass with rogue and land a lot of feinted hits to drain str/constitution!

Wait.

That was removed because people were able to drain constitution and finger of death him. This upset those without magic.

Depends on build of swash, you can drain his str for example


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Acid Fog slows with a fortitude save. Etc.

Hoihe wrote:
For debuffing in context of BGTSCC, only bosses matter.

That is your opinion.

Hoihe wrote:
Try debuffing every single mob you encounter. As a wizard, you'll either run out of spells or not even get to cast it because your party's archer will delete trash mobs (as is their job - I am not saying take it away from them).

Mob herding and AoE spells are a thing.

Hoihe wrote:
Try debuffing every single mob as a swashbuckler. Ditto - whatever you do is useless because trash mobs are already dead and most bosses are immune.

Those useless trash mobs give experience points, those useless trash mobs guard chests that over all produce more loot than those few bosses. My Ranger 30 became filthy rich and reached level 30 on Sea Troll Claw Fjord Cave Trolls. I got banned for it too, a few times, since some people forgot what ranged rangers do to trolls. At one point a DM even stopped the spawn of the mini bosses by replacing them with regular mobs, but I actually ended up with more experience per hour with that.

Hoihe wrote:
The only debuff that sort of exists in Expose Weakness and Feint. Maybe (mass) Curse of Impending Blades as I am yet to find a boss immune to that. (Although knowing our concept of balance, just for my pleasure bosses will receive spell immunity to it because they become "too easy" if people can hit them without maxed strength/dex).

Ugh...

Hoihe wrote:
Cloudkill/acid fog and the like are Damage Over Time and not debuffs.

Cloudkill debuffs constitution. nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Cloudkill <= Read Gameplay notes for a general idea how it works.

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- Elminster, probably.


Last edited by Sun Wukong on Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Hoihe wrote:


Tell me how a swashbuckler is supposed to do anything about the frost giant king.


I know! Multiclass with rogue and land a lot of feinted hits to drain str/constitution!

Wait.

That was removed because people were able to drain constitution and finger of death him. This upset those without magic.


Use a better toothpick?

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"... it sounds like a terrible idea, but look at that smile."
"And he just sounds so confident ... he is a favored soul."
"Even if we don't survive, he will, and isn't that what matters?" -Red Lancer


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 Post subject: Re: Imagine you are designing a game
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Bosses are not necessary content.

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