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 Post subject: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:03 pm 
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What spells can you persist from the cleric spell list.


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Persistent spell does not exist here. It was removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:26 pm 
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DM Invictus wrote:
Persistent spell does not exist here. It was removed.


Gotcha, sorry to ask. :o


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:19 pm 
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It was removed due to clerics and wizards who could basically have permanent haste among other things. Druids too with SoZ spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:15 am 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
It was removed due to clerics and wizards who could basically have permanent haste among other things. Druids too with SoZ spells.


Um...and you can read with NWN2 wiki notes as Haste and Divine Might were not persistible abilities unless you made them as such. (And even if they were you can unpersist them) You can also unpersist spells, including new spells. That's why I dropped the subject after the guy answered it. Persisted spell is overpowered as the spell you allow to be persisted. That's why all I have to say about the subject, which is why I am moving on.


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:45 am 
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*Scratches head.*

Here is a list of spells that can be persisted in stock NWN2: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Spe ... _Persisted

In MotB campaign, I had a Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight use Persisted Haste all the time.

As for Divine Power, I am not sure if you can use the Strength Domain to get Persisted Divine Power or not. Hmn... I think there were at least some spell fixes that did so. As a third level spell you should be able to Persist it.


Anyhow, it has been removed from the server for a such a long time that it is unlikely to be added back. I guess I could try to make a list of spells that would be usable, but not over-powering... but it would not be all that long list.

I mean, what gish would not want to have persisted Bladeweave? What druid would not want to have persisted Foundation of Stone? What cleric would not want to have persisted Divine Favor? Then let us not forget about spells such as Vigor and Lesser Vigor. Basically if the Persistent Spell were brought back... it would only apply to spells that already last minute or in game hour per caster level. It would be largely a wasted feat outside of party buff spell book management...

Would there be a demand to persist spells such as Greater Magic Weapon and Bull's Strength?

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:13 am 
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In practice extended spell is enough... 6 minutes haste means you need 4 of them to last 24 minutes which is likely your next rest. Persistent spell in a pve environment is wasted as you'll need to rest. Might be useful for spell economy in dm no rest events, but the argument there is if they always are fully warded the gish and FvS is always a better fighter than the fighter.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:28 am 
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No point discussing it, Persistent spell will never be a thing on this server. Extend is more than enough between rests and some mages don't even bother with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
*Scratches head.*


Nothing personal :lol: , but there somee people here who are extremely egoistic and can't let stuff go that they will debunk a topic to argue about s bunch of nothing.

DM Invictus wrote:
No point discussing it, Persistent spell will never be a thing on this server. Extend is more than enough between rests and some mages don't even bother with that.


No point in discussing any further you mean? I heard sonething similar on Daleland when it came to Paladin PrCs and +4 items. That changed very quickly. I wouldn't say never, but not anytime soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:40 pm 
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*Scratches head once more.* I think I might be sensing some form of butthurt here.

Anyhow...
ARHicks00 wrote:
No point in discussing any further you mean? I heard sonething similar on Daleland when it came to Paladin PrCs and +4 items. That changed very quickly. I wouldn't say never, but not anytime soon.

Servers are different, and if you wish to see Persistent Spells to be enabled on this server, there are some things you need to do first.

1) Produce a list for all the spells that would be persistable. It might make sense to do individual list for Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric/Favored Soul, and Druid/Spirit Shaman spell books. The spell levels you are interested in are 0 (Cantrips), 1, 2, and 3. This webpage might help with the spells: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Category:Spells <= And this server has its fair share of custom spells.

2) As above, produce a list of all the spells that would compete for persistable spells on the following spell levels: 6 (For Persisted Cantrips), 7 (For Persisted Level 1 spells), 8 (For Persisted Level 2 spells), and 9 (For Persisted Level 3 spells). As above, it would be good to have seperate lists for Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric/Favored Soul, and Druid/Spirit Shaman spell books. It might be a good idea to also not if said spell levels are often used for Extended, Quickened, Empowered, or Maximised spells.

3) The above is mostly just compiling information into lists, and now comes the hard part. You have to come up with the most powerful Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric/Favored Soul, and Druid/Spirit Shaman builds as humanly possible. Without some 'theorycrafting' there is no other way to estimate how re-enabled Persistent Spell would actually react in the server setting. Generally speaking this server has something of a tendency to outright reject anything that sounds 'OP' - and for this reason alone you need to be able to present powerbuilds that Persistent Spell would enable. When you have builds to look at, and the spell lists to consider, it becomes possible to decide what spells can persisted and what should not be.

4) With the above done, you can finally consider making some popular arguments in its favour. For example how it would be a boon in longer DM events, or how it would aid general role-play, or boost party-play in some manner. Spell book management and rest timers might be something you could bring up as well. Oh, and no more of those awkward quick rests and spell spams at campfire to re-apply buffs.

5) And finally, maybe someone becomes willing to put in the work to have it added to the server. The actual implementation, testing, and possible bug fixes included. It is going to be a big task and it is going to be tedious, but it is made simpler by having a 'consensus' on what spells are to be persisted and what are not.


Now, it is not going to work everytime... but... I think going at it that way is the best chance to see Persistent Spells in game. No change comes without some effort and work.


And now, I think I really should make a Dragon Disciple... :whistle:

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:41 am 
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Rather interesting. I think you are reading a bit more into this than the OP intended. ARHicks00 asked what spells were persisted, and DM Invictus said that Persistent spells were removed. ARHicks00 said OK, and that was that. He even said:

ARHicks00 wrote:
That's why all I have to say about the subject, which is why I am moving on.


Methinks that you have unresolved issues about Persistent Spell...


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:18 am 
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Lanzlo wrote:
Methinks that you have unresolved issues about Persistent Spell...

I am fine without it. If I were not, I would have already followed the steps I listed before. Now, what I am fine with is not necessarily what is best for the server, thus I presented a list of things to do in hopes of getting Persistent Spells on this server. If people are not willing to see some effort themselves, the change they wish to bring will likely never happen. It is just how it is.

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Last edited by Tsidkenu on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Forum Rule No.2


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:21 pm 
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A breakdown of Persistent Spell? Okay, I'll bite.

The following spells can be persisted according to the NWN wiki. ones in red are just stupid to persist:

Cantrips:
Light - Makes light - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting

First level:
Bless: +1 attack, +1 will vs. fear
Camouflage - +10 hide - This one looks big, but since druids don't have hide as a class skill, they'd probably be casting it on someone else
Divine Favor - +3 attack +3 damage
Cause fear - -2 attack to a 5hd or less creature - Not worth it.
Detect Undead - Show undead on your minimap
Endure Elements - Pointless, it already has a 24 hour duration
Enlarge Person - +2 strength, -2 Dex, -1 attack -1 ac +3 damage
Entropic shield - 20% chance for enemies to miss with ranged attacks
Expedious Retreat - 150% movement speed - I've always seen this turned off
Foundation of Stone - Immune to knockdown, slowed movement speed.
Lesser vigor - +1 regen/round
Low Light Vision - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Mage Armor - +4 AC - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting

Magic Fang - Animal's weapon becomes a +1 weapon
Magic Weapon - +1 to a weapon - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Shield - +4 shield AC
Divine Shield - Up to +5 defleciton AC

Second level:
Aid: +1 attack +1 saves (extra HP will run out and aren't worth mentioning)
Barkskin: +3-5 natural AC - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
All + stat spells (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc): +4 to one stat
Bladeweave: Low-save 1-round daze per hit to a weapon
Blindsight/See Invisibility
Body of the Sun - 1d4 fire to adjacent enemies - Probably should be turned off
Mass Camouflage - +10 hide to a group - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Death Armor - 1d4+5 damage dealt for each hit you take
False life - 1d10+10 bonus HP - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Flame Weapon - 1d8 fire damage on a weapon
Protection from Arrows - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Resist Energy - You have Prot from Energy by then, so this is pointless

Third level:
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance - +10 listen/spot
Haste - OP, turn it off
Heroism - +2 attack, save, skills - 10min/level, I've never found it to be worth persisting
Improved Mage Armor - +6 AC - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Jagged Tooth - Keen to your animal's attack - 10min/level, Probably not worth it.
Keen Edge/weapon of impact - Keen to your bladed weapon - 10 min/level, not worht persisting

Lesser Visage of the Deity - +4 CHA and some elemental resistances
Magic Circle vs. alignment - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Greater Magic Fang - GMW for animal companions
Magic Vestment - Up to +5 ac to armor or shield - 1 hr/level duration, not worth persisting
Mass Lesser Vigor - +1 regen to a group
Prayer - +1 attack, damage, saves, skills to a group
Protection from Energy - 24 hour duration, persisting does nothing
Vigor - +2 regen/round

For all of those, you need to take a feat (which requires you to already have extend) and give up a high level spell slot. So that mass lesser vigor might look frightening, but it's a +1 regen to your buddies instead of a Storm of Vengeance or mass heal. Your big problem spells are haste and expedious retreat, and I think everyone who's played on a server with persist is used to it being off.

I've played gishes and wizards with it, and usually what I persisted on a gish is Shield and Bladeweave, and on a wizard See Invis and I kept an invis around if I wanted to be That Guy sneaking around without being seen. For any of them, I *might* keep a persistent bull's strength if I'm really grinding for loot. If you're a wizard, the persistable spells just don't do you that much good compared to the spell you could cast instead. Do I want that persistent invisibility, or do I want to cast Polar Ray again? For a wizard, usually it's the big damage spell. For a gish, you just usually don't HAVE that many high level slots, since you don't get as many bonus spots OR caster levels as a straight caster, so do you want to persist Shield, or do you want an energy immunity casting? For clerics it looks like a similar tradeoff - Do you want to persist your bless, or do you want to keep another Word of Faith around?

It's a fun feat to have, but once you turn off Haste's persistability, you don't see it getting used all that much.


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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Sun Wukong wrote:
I am fine without it. If I were not, I would have already followed the steps I listed before. Now, what I am fine with is not necessarily what is best for the server, thus I presented a list of things to do in hopes of getting Persistent Spells on this server. If people are not willing to see some effort themselves, the change they wish to bring will likely never happen. It is just how it is.


Quote, "Um...and you can read with NWN2 wiki notes as Haste and Divine Might were not persistible abilities unless you made them as such. (And even if they were you can unpersist them) You can also unpersist spells, including new spells. That's why I dropped the subject after the guy answered it. Persisted spell is overpowered as the spell you allow to be persisted. That's why all I have to say about the subject, which is why I am moving on."

No multiple steps or arguments to justify why Persistent spell needs to put in game. It is that simple. Having persistent spells is no different from having +4 equipment, it simple there to free spell slots for either more heals from healing spell classes or damaging spells for spellcasters all over.

Again, question has been answered so I am done.

Arjay wrote:
It's a fun feat to have, but once you turn off Haste's persistability, you don't see it getting used all that much.


Haste should only be used in extreme circumstances or to escape, or change the title of battle. Thus it does not need to be persisted. Making it persistant along with vigor would only cause a huge imbalance.


Last edited by ARHicks00 on Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Persistent Spells
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:58 pm 
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For the record, I'm not at all aligning myself with the tone/attitude of the OP. I just enjoy that feat and figured why not.


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