Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

This one is less of a build mechanics question and more of a whats your opinion question.

I am making a sneaker, and can not decide if he will be a crossbow or dagger/kurki wielder. I have completed two builds. And I like them both a lot!

Melee
http://nwn2db.com/build/?294738

Heavy Crossbow
http://nwn2db.com/build/?295414

-If I buy daggers with stealth on them or kukri's with stealth, the melee build will have higher hide/move silently.
-With Xbow I will not have to get as close.
-With Xbow I will lose expose weakness and blinding strike.
-With Xbow I will have the sniper skills, so more damage to things that have damage resist.
-More attacks with melee so more potential damage...I think.
-Might be easier to drop traps as a Xbowman, utilizing distances better.

-I found it hard in the past to get sneak attacks off with range weapons. It always seemed easier to get into position for sneak attack with melee than with ranged attacks. That still a thing?

-Will AB be better with melee than xbow?

So I am looking for opinions on which is more fun and why, a PTWF melee or Xbow sniper, hips sneakers?

X bow will never get more than 2 sneak attacks per round.

There is a kukri sometimes should on Mudds for around 10k that has on hit blindness 25% so with blinding strike you blind enemies a lot.

Sneak attack builds should aim to do about 250-300 damage total in the first flurry so they can drop caster mobs before they get a chance to save or x you.
So I'd go kukri.

8000 posts!
Grats Chad- Woo!

And whats more I think you sold me on the melee build! Woo!

Tekill wrote:This one is less of a build mechanics question and more of a whats your opinion question.

Fair enough.

Tekill wrote:I am making a sneaker, and can not decide if he will be a crossbow or dagger/kurki wielder. I have completed two builds. And I like them both a lot!

Dagger/Butterknife sneaks are so common place... Crossbow Sneaker sounds like something interesting.

Tekill wrote:Melee
http://nwn2db.com/build/?294738

Without 100% RCR that super later Epic Precision will sting.

Tekill wrote:Heavy Crossbow
http://nwn2db.com/build/?295414

Without 100% RCR that build is going to sting leveling it up. You could use the feat spent on Skill Mastery to get something else. Perhaps Blinding Speed as an extra source of haste. Oh, if you can settle down for +3 EB crossbow, Knight's Crossbow sold in Ulgoth's Beard comes with free Rapid Reload, it has price tage of something like 80k. One feat freed to something else.

Tekill wrote:-If I buy daggers with stealth on them or kukri's with stealth, the melee build will have higher hide/move silently.

Yep, double sneak item slots against a singular sneak item slot. It is not that big of a difference, but melee has it better.

Tekill wrote:-With Xbow I will not have to get as close.

This is true, you get sneak attacks once you are withing 30 feet, you can dash away easier to avoid damage.

Tekill wrote:-With Xbow I will lose expose weakness and blinding strike.

Or actually you have no need to use them. Distance is your shield.

Tekill wrote:-With Xbow I will have the sniper skills, so more damage to things that have damage resist.

And actually, you can use your long distance crossbow damage as a way to lure enemies to you one by one. Not to mention that when you team up with someone, you can just auto-attack and enjoy your dexterity modifier to damage when you do not get flanking sneak attacks. It is much easier to flank with a ranged weapon as party and terrain can block mobs from turning to face you.

Tekill wrote:-More attacks with melee so more potential damage...I think.

Yes, this is true. With Haste, Rapid Reload, and Rapid Shot, crossbower gets maximum of 4 attacks per round. Thus two sneak attacks against the four you would get from Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. Crossbow comes with higher base damage per hit though... so the damage difference might not all that much higher...

But melee deals more damage.

Tekill wrote:-Might be easier to drop traps as a Xbowman, utilizing distances better.

This is true. As a melee, you have to drop a trap, go sneak at something, run back past your trap... and so on. As a crossbower, you place your traps, you take a long distance shot and keep firing until the mob enters the trap, and you just Hide in Plain Sight.

Tekill wrote:-I found it hard in the past to get sneak attacks off with range weapons. It always seemed easier to get into position for sneak attack with melee than with ranged attacks. That still a thing?

If you do not have anything that overrides the default low-light/darkvision special effect, roll out as a half-elf. Their low-light field of vision is literally 30 feet, the range of ranged sneak attacks. With low-light vision toggled on, you will know exactly when a mob is withing ranged sneak attack range.

Tekill wrote:-Will AB be better with melee than xbow?

Crossbow: MAX BAB, MAX BAB - 5, MAX BAB, MAX BAB (Haste)

Melee: MAX BAB, MAX BAB - 5, MAX BAB - 10, MAX BAB - 15, MAX BAB - 20, MAX BAB, MAX BAB - 5, MAX BAB - 10, MAX BAB - 15, MAX BAB - 20, MAX BAB (Haste)

How does it look to you?

Tekill wrote:So I am looking for opinions on which is more fun and why, a PTWF melee or Xbow sniper, hips sneakers?

Fun is a relative term. Crossbow HiPS sneaker will be something different to the bread and butterkife HiPS sneakers.

Have you considered something like this route:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?295482

I recommend going dual-wielding for a sneak attacker, due to the amount of attacks you get (doubled due to off-hand). You have to get in close to sneak attack with a crossbow anyway and you won't have many attacks (only 3. You won't have the AB to use manyshot.). If you were to go a ranged sneak attack build, you'd want at-least bow (but it would still be inferior to dual-wielding).

I would also recommend daggers over kukris. The base damage (and thus crit) doesn't really matter. And there are many good daggers on the server, such as:

+3 EB, +3 Hide/Move Silent
+4 EB, 1d4 Acid, Fort DC vs STR Drain
Plus ones made out of material like silver for bypassing DR.
And probably others I haven't found yet.

All valid arguments in favor of the Xbow. Why the decision is so difficult. But the following arguement might be the tipping point.

Fun is a relative term. Crossbow HiPS sneaker will be something different to the bread and butterkife HiPS sneakers.

Points for uniqueness - I will take it.

I thought about freeing up rapid reload, but I really like the Bladed Xbow at the epic merchant shop. It pumps out a bit more damage. I will check out the Knights Xbow though...would be nice to have +hide/ms and rapid reload...the dream xbow.

I was not sure about Skill Mastery - It would depend on how many traps I end up using I suppose. Blinding Speed has a short duration- I would rather just use haste wands as needed....Skill focus move silently maybe...

Yeah I am RCR'ing my broken warlock into this Build- so I am not too concerned about the order of the feats.

The http://nwn2db.com/build/?295482 build looks nice, a smidge better mechanically than my build but I am making a sacrifice for Tracking/swift tracking. I really want him to be useful.

Okay...so I have flipped yet again! I shall choose XBow! Woo.

You have to get in close to sneak attack with a crossbow anyway and you won't have many attacks (only 3. You won't have the AB to use manyshot.)

Oh yeah..Manyshot, -6 to ab for two shots and -8 all three shots?
No good for pvp/bossse. It would still be good for trash though.

I guess then manyshots is more for fighters/ranger builds....sort of dividing the sneak attackers with the regular archers a bit.

Xbow- plant trap, snipe from a distance, wait for trap to trigger, then hips to get in position, and then sneak attack.
Daggers- Hips, plant trap, sneak attack, lead them to trap, hips again, sneak attack.

Epic precision will make sneak attack viable even against bosses. But having that extra sniper damage is better still.

I guess the question would be whether the snipe damage is worth losing all those extra Ptwf attacks.

It seems my choice comes down to Xbow for style reasons or daggers for mechanical reasons. Or kukri for some style or mechanics.

Sheesh!

You can go Rogue 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8 and get natural AB 38 to make Manyshot very worthwhile from HiPS. But you lose Epic Dodge.

Consider 6 warlock dip if you wanna crossbow: 4dex for free, blind fight, 4 hide/ms, unlimited haste, full spellcraft. Sometheng like that http://nwn2db.com/build/?295510 main pros is easy haste for 2 attacks from hide. You can alter this to bow for 3 attacks from hide or/and 16 rogue to phantom for insane hips+step combo.

Another way you could go is this (esp. this month): http://nwn2db.com/build/?295518

Steve wrote:You can go Rogue 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8 and get natural AB 38 to make Manyshot very worthwhile from HiPS. But you lose Epic Dodge.

You could go Rogue 10/Assassin 9/Neverwinter Nine 3/Fighter 8 instead. Same AB, but you gain 1d6 sneak attack, higher movement speed, and Neverwinter Nine (bodyguard) gives heal as a class skill.

38 (without items/buffs) AB is acceptable, though you'll still have less attacks and less sneak damage than a dual-wielder. As a HiPser, you want a natural 30 AB, that is a sweet spot.

That is the other problem. You need to sacrifice a load of sneak dice in order to gain the same AB as your dual-wielding counterpart.

I don't think the +20~ damage from xbow sniper mastery+fighter feats would make up both the lost sneak dice (4d6, depending on your build) and the lost attacks (you make 6 on your first flurry. If you go phantom, you can ethereal step into another flurry as well or you can blinding strike into the next as a rogue).

Ultimately, go with what you'll have the most fun playing. You have the chance to test them both out, at-least!

Thanks for the tips so far, I am getting closer to a decision, I can feel it.

The gish posted above was nice and so was the sniper with the warlock splash- both seem OP - Admin please nurf these two builds. Har - just kidding.
The fighter with the range mastery feat is nice too. Easy way to boost AB with just a few levels. Throwing a few levels of fighter into the mix could definately make manyshot worthwhile.
But I want to keep the tracking/swift tracker feats as well- always wanted an assassin type with tracking.

So this build: rogue/fighter/assassin/wilderness stalker : http://nwn2db.com/build/?295526
I got the AB up a bit more (4pts) and was able to keep switft tracking. But I am not sure if that is enough though to make manyshot viable. 13D sneak damage, I wouldnt want it lower than this. Perhaps instead of adding dex pts I can take sneak damage, instead?

If the AB is high enough I might take a shot at this one...

The PTWF version of this build would be nice too http://nwn2db.com/build/?295534. Mainly because I have feats to take skill focus hide and ms and gain a tiny bit of AB. But I lose 2d sneak damage and epic dodge.
The higher sneak skills worth it?

I think it might come down to this new xbow build vs my first ptwf build.

Tekill wrote: The PTWF version of this build would be nice too http://nwn2db.com/build/?295534. Mainly because I have feats to take skill focus hide and ms and gain a tiny bit of AB. But I lose 2d sneak damage and epic dodge.
The higher sneak skills worth it?

I think it might come down to this new xbow build vs my first ptwf build.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?272832

For PTWF you could do a build like this and replace skill focus: move silent with weapon focus: martial.

You'd lose blinding strike and your skill foci, but you'd gain:
Heal as a class skill (32 Heal), 3d6 sneak dice, slightly more HP, and camouflage w/ slightly higher movement speed on top of that. It has the same AB and AC.

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That said, between those two builds, I'd take the PTWF build any-day.

There are an insane number of options for a PTWF build as well as a crossbow build. In either case it is REALLY difficult to pass on Bodyguard (2d6 sneak dice, high BAB progression and 10% movement increase for 3 levels is really helpful for most sneak attack builds).

If going for daggers/kukri's I would probably go with R19/NWN3/A8 and I would definitely make sure to get Blinding Strike. This build would use daggers so as not to spend a feat for kukri's. 16d6 sneak dice (more if you want to spend some epic feats) gives you an average of ~224 damage in your opening flurry. Phantom 21/A9 is another option that gets 16d6 sneak dice for some really powerful attacks. It loses Epic Dodge, but gains the ability to avoid any counter attacks/spells by hopping out of HiPS with a flurry followed by Ghost Step to avoid any opposition counter. It's limited to 21 uses per rest, but that is more than enough to ensure you don't get smacked with a spell when you didn't see the caster before attacking some other mob or to use in boss fights.

If you want to go for Wilderness Stalker R11/A9/WS7/NWN3 is a fine split. 15d6 sneak dice, camouflage which is the best "nice to have" ability there is for a sneak and faster movement as an added bonus. Again, loses Epic Dodge, but it's still a perfectly viable build and has a ton of abilities that make a build more "fun" in my opinion. Swift Tracker, Camouflage, Fast movement, Death Attack, Assassin Spells, Poisons are all things that can make adventuring a little more interesting. There simply a lot of things you can do.

As an aside, the above split is also great for an archer using a Short Bow (unless your race grants Longbow). Can get to ~42 AB pretty easily, 34 with Manyshot which attacking out of HiPS is pretty good. When necessary Greater Heroism pots can make for a very solid Manyshot AB out of stealth. For a PTWF build the AB is more than enough, on the higher end thanks to 10 levels of high BAB. Note that your fortitude and will saves will still be low, but better than most sneaks thanks to high FORT progression from WS and high reflex/will progression from bodyguard.